Virtual or in-person mediation: Is it just cost and time alone or are there other benefits that you should be aware of? Matthew Brickman and Sydney Mitchell answer your most frequently asked questions about divorce as they go over several key points:
If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479
Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.
Download Matthew's book on iTunes for FREE:
You're Not the Only One - The Agony of Divorce: The Joy of Peaceful Resolution
Matthew Brickman
President iMediate Inc.
Mediator 20836CFA
iMediateInc.com
SCHEDULE YOUR MEDIATION: https://ichatmediation.com/calendar/
OFFICIAL BLOG: https://ichatmediation.com/podcast
OFFICIAL YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/ichatmediation
OFFICIAL LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ichat-mediation/
ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Virtual or in-person mediation: Is it just cost and time alone or are there other benefits that you should be aware of? Matthew Brickman and Sydney Mitchell answer your most frequently asked questions about divorce as they go over several key points:
If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479
Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.
Download Matthew's book on iTunes for FREE:
You're Not the Only One - The Agony of Divorce: The Joy of Peaceful Resolution
Matthew Brickman
President iMediate Inc.
Mediator 20836CFA
iMediateInc.com
SCHEDULE YOUR MEDIATION: https://ichatmediation.com/calendar/
OFFICIAL BLOG: https://ichatmediation.com/podcast
OFFICIAL YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/ichatmediation
OFFICIAL LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ichat-mediation/
ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell
Matthew Brickman:Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the MediateThis! Podcast, where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.
Sydney Mitchell:Well, Hey everyone. I'm Sydney sitting here with Matthew on today's episode of MediateThis!, we have been receiving tons of questions from you, our listeners, for us to talk about, and today we're gonna be tackling one of those questions. The question that we're looking at today reads, a nd, I love this topic and we've, we've talked about it a little bit, Matthew, but I'm excited to really dedicate this ep isode t o, to d i ving f ully in, in d iscussing some of this, the question reads, what is the advantage of mediating virtually over in person? Is it just cost and time alone? And I wanna preface this. Obviously we are coming kind of to the end of COVID 19, we're, we're filming this in the year of 2022, and, u h, t hings are kind of reverting culturally back to how they were, n o longer a social distancing required no longer on masks required. Some of the, you know, the standards in public places are, are being alleviated. They're being, let go, and things are kind of returning back to normal, but I know Matthew that a lot of people are keeping to, engaging with mediation virtually. So first of all, before we answer the question, I ki nd o f w anna just give you an opportunity to just kind of talk about what it's been like, u m, f rom 2018 to 2019, what shifted when mediation, v irtual mediation became an option? How have you seen that affecting families? And let's just kind of start from the beginning and then we'll kind of talk about some of the advantages and disadvantages, u m, as things are, you know, as virtual mediation may not be required or necessary anymore, is that something fam ily sh ould stick to, so I know I just kind of said a m o uthful, so let's start at the beginning.
Matthew Brickman:Uh, right. So I'm gonna back up. So you had mention
Sydney Mitchell:You just go ahead. I know I, I wanna back this up to the beginning,
Matthew Brickman:You had mentioned like, okay, let's start at the beginning, like 20 18, 20, 19 or 2020. No, no, I know
Sydney Mitchell:You've been doing virtual mediation way longer.
Matthew Brickman:I know I'm gonna go back to 2009. So 2009 was when I first created iChat mediation had Cisco communications build me a custom mediation platform. That's when I started to do virtual mediation, um, from 2009 until COVID hit. So about March 20, 20, um, spent a lot of money and spent a lot of effort trying to educate people in virtual mediation. Um, and the question that you asked just as the, or the question that the listener had was is it just cost in time alone? Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and you know, are there advantages to virtual over in person? And these were the, these were the, the, the things that led me to create it in the first place
Sydney Mitchell:So way before COVID
Matthew Brickman:Way before COVID. So I'll just, I'll give you a little history when I first created it, the thought that I had in mind was why are we stuck to just mediating in one specific geographic location that everybody has to travel to mm-hmm<affirmative> because, you know, we live in sort of, kind of, I mean, I I'm, I'm, I'm not one of those earth flatter people, but in, in, in, in a, uh, let me just put it to you this way we live in, uh, in a world that's flat. And when I say that it's flat, I know that it's round, it's a globe, but the ability to travel everywhere, it's like a flat plane, right? Like everybody travels. And so, you know, but there aren't restrictions. Sometimes, usually those are as this question, ask cost. Yeah. There's a cost associated with it. And so, for example, you know, in Florida, I've, I've had where like one party is in Florida. The other party is in New York. Mm-hmm<affirmative> well, what if that party in New York doesn't have the money to fly down, get a hotel rental car food to attend a mediation? Well, then what happens is it's delayed and delayed and delayed and delayed, and that just infuriates the other party usually, or the, it
Sydney Mitchell:Only makes it a, a more complicated and
Matthew Brickman:Frustrating. It makes it will be. And it makes it complicated because of emotion. Like we are like mediation is to transition people out of emotion, into a business like relationship. The problem though is when it's delayed, well, then it becomes emotional. Well, then trying to transition'em even harder. And so when I first had this in my, I was thinking, okay, geographically, why can't we just do it regardless of where anyone is? The second thing that I thought about was, um, women of domestic violence. Um, because if, if, if you are a victim of domestic violence, um, or a survivor, I, I actually like that better. I'm gonna use that term. I like it.
Sydney Mitchell:And men or women, men,
Matthew Brickman:Men, men are women, but generally it is women. And so, you know what my thought process was, well, look, if there is a no contact order, an injunction of protection of domestic violence, maybe if they're in a shelter and they are like, but they need to move through this process and get away from the abuser, get divorced from the abuser. This is the perfect platform. This isn't about cost or time. This is about protection. That's really
Sydney Mitchell:Great. That that was one of your initial thoughts
Matthew Brickman:Back. Yeah. They could appear from anywhere in the world and, and, and they don't have to worry about either being in the same geographic location, even in the same building, the same room, a different office or whatnot. They don't have to worry about that. They don't have to worry about, you know, in, in Sydney, I've, I've back in the day when everything was in person, I did do a number of mediations where like, there's a no contact order. And so like the husband, you know, the wife would arrive first, she'd be in a separate office. Then the husband would come, they'd be separated the whole time. And then I would then take care of the wife, you know, once it was all done, she would then pay, I would let her go. Then I'd go in and I'd have to stall, install and buy her time to actually get out, make it to the car leave. So that then when the husband or the boyfriend left, then there's no one to follow, but what if they actually have somebody else sitting outside waiting for'em and it's not them, like, these are people are creative. Right. And so to get a completely safe situation, virtual, that was my thought process. And so I actually contacted, um, a battered woman's shelter and said, Hey, um, do you have women there that are in hiding for needing to get divorced? Oh yeah. I'm like, I've got something for you. Um, and so that was my thought process. So what above and beyond cost in time, I'm thinking safety. I'm also thinking emotion. Um, also mediating, like I said, is to transition people out of an emotional relationship into a business like relationship. But sometimes it's difficult because to see the other person sitting in the room across the table from you sometimes, you know, you know, a look can cause fear or paralysis, and then they end up backing off of a negotiation. Or even if they're in different rooms and I'm going back and forth between the two rooms, they're still nervous. Like, I mean, and I've had people say, you know, can I go to the bathroom? Um, alright, I don't wanna run into them in the hallway. Like, can you guarantee this? I can escort you. I can try. Like, you know, and so the emotion gets in the way, so mediating virtually, no, you don't have to deal with it.
Sydney Mitchell:So you talk about, um, having been having started this, um, in 2009, you said,
Matthew Brickman:Yeah.
Sydney Mitchell:Okay. Were, was there anybody else, excuse me. Were there any other mediators that you knew of at that time doing this? Or were you the first one in your sphere?
Matthew Brickman:No, I don't know anybody. Um, even when COVID started or right before COVID, um, I guess in 2019, um, you know, and, and, and I was constantly Googling and checking virtual mediation, right? Virtual the, I, I found one, I found one in Hawaii.
Sydney Mitchell:One. Yeah. Here is just wonderful's.
Matthew Brickman:What's interesting. This is, this is how they termed virtual mediation. They would mediate everything via email. Are you kidding me?
Sydney Mitchell:<laugh> yeah, that would
Matthew Brickman:Like, that's the longest running mediation in the world.
Sydney Mitchell:Oh my
Matthew Brickman:Gosh. I mean, that's not virtual mediation. That's just exchanging communication and it is like, that's not mediation.
Sydney Mitchell:My email chains are long enough. Let alone<laugh> just with
Matthew Brickman:The regular I, and that was project
Sydney Mitchell:At work. Let alone.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah, that was the closest thing I ever found to virtual mediation. Now, when COVID hit, everyone's scrambling going, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And I'm going, hello? Hadn't had a platform since oh nine. And a lot of the attorneys that I'd worked with were calling me going, Matthew you've had a platform. Right. And I'm like, yes. Um, and the other thing too, which is beneficial, uh, being that I did have it is that I'm not learning how to use technology on your dime. Like, I know how to use my platform. A lot of mediators were learning, going, okay, how do you do breakout rooms? And how do you separate people and how do you draft and how do you do electronic signatures? And how does all this work? And I'm going, I've been doing this since oh nine. I know how this all works. And everybody E all the way up to COVID anyone and everyone that I ever VIR did a virtual mediation for, they all left feedback comments, cuz I always sent everybody a form to fill out about their comments. I wanted to know. All right. How was your experience? Right? Mm-hmm
Sydney Mitchell:<affirmative>
Matthew Brickman:Same thing. And the, um, overwhelmingly the same response was, um, uh, flawless. They said it was just flawless. It just, the workflow was there. It worked, it was great. Um, and for me, I could be anywhere. I didn't have to be in a specific jurisdiction, a specific county, a specific state. I could be anywhere. In fact, my first virtual mediation, I was on vacation in Georgia visiting my grandmother. That was my first virtual mediation. I wasn't even in the state of Florida, that was a Florida divorce, but I wasn't here. And it was great. So cost, yes, it is much, much cheaper to do a virtual mediation than an in person. Mediation. Here's the biggest cost. It's cheaper on the clients because let's say for example, that you, that, that it's in person. Well then the attorney will build the client generally when they leave the office to the other attorney's office. Okay. So you're just paying for time for travel. Okay, great. Then you're paying for that attorney to sit in that room with you all day long and rarely do attorneys like to be in the same room with everybody together, having one conversation. Now as a mediator, I, I want that it's much easier, much faster, much cheaper. Most attorneys don't want that. So, um, and they have their own reasons and, and, and find whatever. But the party, the husband, the wife, the mother, the father they're paying for that attorney all day long. Now, if they're in separate rooms, that means when I go into the other room to talk to the other, um, the other side, that means that they're still paying their attorney and their attorney is sitting there. They're, they're chit chatting at maybe 2 50, 300,$400 an hour. That's an expensive chit chat all day long. Right. Right. And so they're, they're each paying their attorneys. Plus they're paying me, they're paying for driving time. That's a very expensive process. Now virtual, what a lot of attorneys do is, um, they will bill them when I come back to the room. So when I leave the room, they're off the clock.
Sydney Mitchell:Only it it's a virtual mediation.
Matthew Brickman:If it's a virtual mediation. Yeah. So like I'll, I'll come into the room, find they're on the clock with the attorney. And then I leave to go back to the other room and the attorney takes'em off the clock, mutes, the camera turns or mutes, the microphone turns off the camera. And then the attorney is now working on something else as well. So for the attorney, they're able to double bill, triple bill, quadruple bill. They're able to multitask and make a lot more money. The people are actually paying less money. And so, yeah, it's much cheaper to do it virtual than, than in person. Right. And then you've got, okay, travel costs, everybody's travel costs. My travel costs, the attorney's travel costs. The party's travel costs. Fine. You don't have to worry about that. Plus Sydney, if you were going through a mediation, wouldn't it be great to do it in your home? And when I go into the other room, you can have your own snack, drink your own drink, do your own laundry. Like you can get stuff done instead of having to put your life on pause, go to a law firm and sit in a sterile room in a very uncomfortable situation. No, you can do it from the safety, comfort and convenience of your own home, anywhere in
Sydney Mitchell:The right. I mean, we're doing this right now, virtually and I'm in my sweatpants. Yeah. So yes, it is absolutely more convenient.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. I mean, it's so, so much more, um, now for mediators, I will tell you for mediators, I have to be hyper vigilant I'm because in person, Sidney, I can watch your entire body language.
Sydney Mitchell:I was gonna ask about that body language, facial expression
Matthew Brickman:From head to tone,
Sydney Mitchell:You read in person,
Matthew Brickman:I can watch you constantly cross your legs because you're nervous. Tap your foot, tap your finger. I can watch you, you know, pick up and drink of water and you're shaking cuz you're nervous. Like I can watch. So you know what being that I'm basically seeing you from neck up, I'm really, really having to pay attention to everything. And so for a mediator, you really have to be paying attention more virtual than in person. I mean, in person, you've got a lot more cues at your surrounding mm-hmm<affirmative> whereas online you don't have as much. And so for a mediator you really have to be paying a whole lot more attention, not just to okay. I'm mediating and stuff. It's like, you're really having to pay attention to, um, to the, the limited body language. So. Okay, fine.
Sydney Mitchell:Are there any substantial if, unless there are more advantages we wanna talk through, I also wanna talk about, you know, whether or not there are any substantial disadvantages to other than what you kind of just talked about as a mediator, having to be a little bit more sensitive to, to cue social cues and things like that. But are there any other disadvantages that would deter somebody from engaging in mediation virtually?
Matthew Brickman:It depends on your perspective of a, of, of a disadvantage I think. And here's what I mean, this younger generation, uh, your generation, maybe even the generation just above you, below me and younger, the ones that were raised. All right. So my generation was raised on MTV music. Mm-hmm<affirmative> I'm talking about the MTV generation that did not have music, but had reality TV. Okay. That generation, right? Yes. Yes. That generation a disadvantage to virtual mediation is they are not allowed to be obnoxious and intimidate. And I mean like the virtual mediation platform does not allow for a lot of obnoxious behavior. That's demonstrated on reality TV that you only get to do in the room with other people present where you can yell, scream, throw your tantrum. The loudest person gets heard, not in virtual mediation. If you're being obnoxious, I will mute you.<laugh>. Um, and, and that's, I
Sydney Mitchell:Bet that mute button is your best friend.
Matthew Brickman:And that's whether an attorney or a party I'll be like, don't make me mute you. Like, come on. I mean, I had a mediation once where it was, it, it was a modification. The husband was pro se the wife had an attorney, but had the same attorney that she had for the divorce. Well, her attorney and this other guy did not get along at all. And so he was very passive, aggressive, both the attorney and the party. They were both passive aggressive. So they would say things to egg, the other one on. And it was, and, and I remember that, you know, we're all watching the screen and we're all in a room together. And the, and, and the ex-husband starts getting heated. And then he pushes his chair back and he stands up and he's throwing his finger towards the screen. And all of a sudden he stops like mid stops. And you can see that he now is looking at the screen, seeing what a looks like, oh, it looks just like him. And he caught himself being obnoxious that he would not normally catch himself if it was in person. Right.
Sydney Mitchell:Right. I think we actually had this. We may have talked about
Matthew Brickman:This. We did episode.
Sydney Mitchell:It's not
Matthew Brickman:Familiar, but I think we, I'm
Sydney Mitchell:Glad you're sharing it because it's, it's just so true. It's so
Matthew Brickman:True. But, but you know what, you don't get that in, in, in, in a real mediation and in person mediation, because you don't have those checks and balances, you don't have the ability to mute people. You don't have, you know, certain, certain things that really you can control the atmosphere. Um, so there are advantages. Um, I have not found too many disadvantages to virtual mediation. Um, except except if you have a mediator or an attorney whoever's running the platform, um, who does not know how to run the platform. I've heard a disadvantage where, and I, and I think it was the mediator. This was back when it first started. They were using zoom thought. They put everybody in separate rooms and didn't, and started to talk about the other party. No, not a good thing at all. Um, so yeah, huge disadvantage. Whereas if you're in person and someone and someone's still standing there, you're gonna wait till they walk outta the room, you know, they're outta the room. Okay. Now you can start talking about it. Right. Um, but, um, now where is it going? I think that was what you had asked me in the beginning too. Where is it going? So now where, you know, so that was 2009 to 20, 19, 20, 20 fine during COVID and even last year, 2021. Um, in those two years, um, I did I think 300 and something mediations and I had three in person. Um, I mean, everything was virtual. And even now that okay, just like you said, we're coming outta COVID. We've got, you know, we're not doing the social distancing in the masks and stuff. At least in Florida, some states still have that. Uh, but, but not in Florida, it looks as though the court is going to keep certain judicial actions virtual, uh, because the, what the court has found out is productivity level is through the roof. Right? Because you can get a lot more cases done through the system virtual because people don't have to be here. I had a mediation where a guy was a boat captain on a yacht in the Mediterranean. I mean, it would've been outrageously expensive and time that he doesn't have to leave his job to come back to Florida to get divorced. No, he appeared virtual. Great. Not a problem. Right. Um, there are certain hearings that, that, that the court is like, no, we're gonna keep these virtual we've learned, Hey, we don't need to be a person for certain things. Um, there are certain judicial things that really do need to be in person. Um, mediation's not one of them. Um, and so, um, even in 2022, so far, um, I've had one in person. Um, there's no need for it. And, and I personally for my business, um, do not believe that it needs to be in person unless everybody is going to be in the same room, not in the same geographic location, but in the same room. If, if I am going to travel to Palm beach gardens and go into a law firm and the husband and the wife and the attorneys myself, are all gonna get in a room around a table and we're going to negotiate a settlement. Okay, fine. But if we're gonna be in separate rooms the entire time, there's no need to drag everybody to one geographic location and waste a whole bunch of time, money, and, you know, cloud the issues with emotions. There's no need for it.
Sydney Mitchell:Do you find that you ever have any clients that, um, the only other disadvantage that I I would consider is, uh, it feeling less formal, less official, less, uh, severe, or like feeling the weight of going through that process, walking into that room, sitting down, looking at you face to face, making these decisions, having these discussions. Do you have any, uh, any parties that express that they feel that that's a loss at all? I mean, it seems like everybody is kind of stuck to virtual and it's working great and there's no need to go back in person. Um, that's the only other factor that I can really think of. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. So, so if you figure divorce or paternity, if there's kids involved divorce or paternity,
Sydney Mitchell:Cause it's a very weighty process.
Matthew Brickman:If they're at the place of divorce or separating, needing a paternity agreement, the last thing they wanna do is be a be together. Like they don't wanna be together. The whole point is to get them apart. So they don't ever have to see each other deal with each other again. Now grant, they're still gonna have to, but we're gonna transition em. So they're not missing anything. Um, and a lot of'em a lot of'em. I mean, you know, if you really want, and I'll just tell the listeners, if you really wanna see what people are saying, go to my website and read the feedback. There's a lot of feedback. E every client that I have, I send them an email after and say, Hey, give me your feedback on your virtual mediation. Um, there's a lot of feedback of wow. Um, like I said, I mean, you know, people really like the fact, I mean, and, and look, they like it for a lot of different reasons. It's interesting Sydney we're now. I mean, like I can do an entire divorce paperless, not one piece of paper because your entire
Sydney Mitchell:Not how things have changed.
Matthew Brickman:<laugh> yeah. Your entire agreement is email. It's a PDF. It can be filled out online. It can be filed online. You come to mediation. I draft everything in a Microsoft word document. I upload it to DocuSign. You electronically sign it. And then it is then uploaded through the court's portal. And then it's electronically then submitted to the court. And I'm not sure if the judge signs it electronic or maybe prints out one page to then put his signature. So a lot of people like the fact that they're going, wow, we're saving trees. Okay, great. For those that care. Great. It works. The others they're going great. My carbon footprint is next to none. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not using anything very low everything. Um, convenience. Absolutely. I've even had attorneys that are like, look, I can only go until five. O'clock great. You know what, not a problem. Five o'clock comes. We're almost done, but not yet. And they're like, Matthew, I need to go get my kids. Great. They can, in, in my system, they're able to switch from being on a computer, to a phone seamlessly, and guess what? Then they're, then they're, they're driving and they're still on, on audio. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and they're still able to then review a document. They can electronically sign a document. So even when like I've had it where like a mom has to go and it's just like, look, I gotta go pick my kid up at daycare or at aftercare, it's almost six. O'clock great. Not a problem. They don't have to leave. Whereas if it's in person, you're having to cut it short. Then, then, then you've got traffic then. Okay, it's over now, you have to reschedule. I was gonna
Sydney Mitchell:Say, and then potentially rescheduling for
Matthew Brickman:That time rescheduling and then follow up. Now the parties have to take off another day of work and I'm like, no, here's the other thing, Sydney. I work days, evenings and weekends. I tell people all the time do not take off of work and miss out on making the money that you need for your family, just to get through this process. I'm flexible. It's online. So, I mean, there are just so many advantages and, uh, fortunately, but unfortunately fine. We had a virus that forced everybody into it. Okay. Welcome. Welcome to the way of doing things. And it really is a good way to do things. Yeah. And like I said, doing it online, um, a lot of people, a lot of people have commented and said, it's a very, and I think this goes to your question, it's a very surreal experience. Like it doesn't really feel real. It's like this feels, I mean, look, you, people will appear just like online for your mediation. When they get divorced, they will simply log on to the portal. The judge will come on on a screen, they'll be on a screen. The judge will ask them a couple of questions and divorce them. And they never step, step foot in a courthouse. It's a very surreal sort of experience, but you know what? It's also very low emotion. It's a business transaction. Fine. Maybe you're a fine, maybe your emotions got you into it, but you know what? It's a business transaction getting out and we're gonna make it as inexpensive. I, my, as the mediator, especially virtual, is to keep the cost down, keep the time commitment down and keep the emotions down. And if I can respect your money, your time and your emotions, it's gonna be a much better process. Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q& A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.
Sydney Mitchell:If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that's info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.
Matthew Brickman:For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.