Mediate This!
Mediate This!
Interview with Marc Lesser Part I: Keynote and Developer of the SIY Program within Google
Matthew Brickman sits down to talk with Marc Lesser, Founder and CEO of 3 companies, including the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute. Mindfulness teacher, executive coach, speaker, and facilitator. Author of 4 books, including “Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader: Lessons from Google and a Zen Monastery Kitchen.”
If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479
Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.
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You're Not the Only One - The Agony of Divorce: The Joy of Peaceful Resolution
Matthew Brickman
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Mediator 20836CFA
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.
Matthew Brickman:So welcome to the podcast, Marc. I'm so glad to have you here.
Marc Lesser:Pleased to be here. It's interesting, I've been doing my own podcast for a few months, not, not as long as yours, but it's interesting to be on these, the other end here. I'm used to being in the, host shoes. Yeah, I've been, I've been on both ends of the interviewer and then been on and been interviewed, and it is a little bit of a different dynamic, uh, but it's a conversation, so.
Matthew Brickman:Exactly. So, wow. Um, I, I think I wanna start out, um, and when I say wow, just looking at all that you've accomplished, all that you've done, I know you've got a new book out and I wanna talk about that as well, but for the listeners, um, like I could do my own little, like, okay, this is Mark Lesser, but I'd actually like to hear from you. Like, who's Mark Lesser? Like, you know, cuz you've, I I, I wouldn't know what to actually pinpoint and highlight cuz there's so much there,
Marc Lesser:I'm h ap I'm happy, you know, t o Yeah, it's always, I, I've, I've told my, you know, again, I can do the, you know, anywhere from the one m inute version t o the five m inute or longer versions of Yeah. It's kind of a maz this, you know, I'm, I I feel both, uh, surprised and rather privileged t o this, this life and I'm here. U m, I'm actually, I'm not, this is not where I'm usually perched. O kay. I a m in Missoula, Montana. U h, my, uh, my daughter just had a baby son, so I Oh, wow. My wife and I are here, uh, supporting, being, support supportive parents.
Matthew Brickman:Awesome. And you're, andyou're based out of California though, correct?
Marc Lesser:I'm usually, just north of San Francisco.
Matthew Brickman:Just north of San Francisco. One of the things, I mean, aside from just all the executive coaching you've done and the, you know, leadership training, um, with a lot of big companies, I mean, Google for just, we're just gonna name drop one of'em. Um, but then I, I thought it was interesting too about your Zen monastery that you opened.
Marc Lesser:Yes. My, my, uh, my one year leave of absence from Rutgers that turned into 10 years at the, the Zen Center, including five years living in a monastic life. And, and, um,<laugh>, my, my parents not thrilled about that, as you can imagine, but how that ended up being the, you know, the springboard for so much of what I've been able to, to do.
Matthew Brickman:Sure, sure. So, um, I really, you know, so I was interested when, uh, when you, when you had reached out about, um, your new book because of, you know, what I do as a mediator, um, dealing with people that are always in conflict. I, I like to refer to myself as I sit in the friction of life mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, because I've mean, intentionally I sit in the friction just between two people that are having issues. Um, sometimes it's business, most of the time it's personal, it's family related, um, and whatnot. But then all of the people that I'm dealing with, of course, are dealing with their own friction. They're dealing with their own relationships and, um, and whatnot. And, um, you know, looking through your bio, I, you know, I thought it was interesting that, that you had brought emotional intelligence training to Google. Um, and I've done a little bit, probably nowhere close to what you've done. I've done a little bit of training on emotional intelligence, um, which I have found fascinating. Um, but it's in that, you know, I read that, you know, that you had said that you can actually learn a lot about dealing with difficult people by simply being still and looking inward.
Marc Lesser:Mm-hmm.
Matthew Brickman:<affirmative>, can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Marc Lesser:<laugh>,<laugh>, I see. Are we, are we recording? Is this
Matthew Brickman:Yeah.
Marc Lesser:Okay.<laugh>. Yeah. I think, um, I think all, uh, healthy relationships, and especially as you were saying, working, whenever it's uncomfortable, the, the, the, the most obvious starting point is to, is to be curious about your own discomfort. Whereas the tendency, as, you know, as a mediator is I think we are actually wired in some way, both wired and reinforced to go right to blame, to go right to what is it about the other, what, you know, instead of looking at the way in which to some degree we are always creating our own reality, our own worlds, our, we we're generating our own emotions. And like, imagine that, I mean, even, um, you know, uh, I, I, I often get asked, you know, how do we work? How do I work with those difficult people? And I immediately wonder, are you one of those difficult people or we're all, we in some, you know, we are all difficult people in some situations to some other people. Yeah. So, but, so that, to me, that question is such a, a giveaway that the person is not asking the right question generally. Like of course there are toxic people, there are, sure. You know, and, and we should have, but most, mostly those day-to-day, you know, uncomfortable situations are one where Yeah. As you just asked about, starting by stopping and being curious about your own emotions is a really skillful, useful way to begin.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Well, and you know, as, as a mediator, I find, um, and, and I'm in, I'm in south Florida, um, so we are a melting pot, um, similar to California, New York, where, you know, we've got Caribbean, we've got South American, we've got, um, we're, we're just gonna call New York, New York, their own<laugh>. Right. Um, but we've got so many different cultures that we've got religious beliefs, political beliefs, cultural beliefs, and when you start mixing all that together, I find, you know, as a mediator, a lot of times I just sit and listen. You know, I'm, you know, trying to actually listen to not what is being said, but why is it being said, and is it a cultural belief or is it something that maybe was ingrained as as a child just because they're a product of their parents. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and so much of that is just listening. And, you know, as much as I'm there, sometimes I'm there to facilitate, so I'm having to really talk and whatnot, but then sometimes it's just listening and letting the two people work things out, discuss, and I'm trying, I'm, I'm like looking for those pieces to figure out, you know, why, what's, what's going on behind the scenes.
Marc Lesser:Yeah, no, totally. You know, you pointed out the, you know, kind of ethnic and cultural, cultural differences, but even, you know, even people that come from, you know, what looks like very similar backgrounds, our own, um, the way that we deal with conflict, the way that we deal with different emotional issues, the way that we deal with the underlying stories, sometimes the trauma. Um, you know, it, it, I think the mistake that we make is that we, um, we, we assume that everyone is from our planet. You know, I, I sometimes like that language that we're, we all come from our own planet in terms of how we see the world and how we process information. And where we get in trouble is assuming that, that everyone else, they must come from our planet. And, and, and then we spend time trying to convince them that they should be on our planet and doesn't usually work so well. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I see that in the, you know, a lot of the work that I do is in the business world that I, I, I see people in meetings not hearing each other, and I can almost see, you know, I sometimes visualize their parents be behind them, you know, uh, scolding them or not appreciating them and just, you know. Yeah. So even, even back to your, um, original question about starting by stopping, starting by, you know, noticing all of the, the, you know, what are we bringing into this conversation, uh, that might be getting in the way of actually listening, hearing, connecting. Do we want to connect? Is our, is our intention, are we intending even to listen? Or are we just there to be right?
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Well, and, and I saw that in myself even, um, 2020 got us in a lot of trouble,<laugh>, um, because, you know, by, by being isolated, everybody's voice was liquid courage through the internet, and everybody was voicing their opinions, including myself, to the point where I kept getting put in Facebook jail, assuming that everybody thought that I was right and I saw things. Right. And then of course, then you find out that there's so much satire, so much misinformation and all the conversations, and that really led to a huge division of an us versus them. Someone like you're saying like, this is our planet. That is your planet. Well, you're gonna be part of my planet or get off my planet. Well, that doesn't work when we're actually all on the same planet.<laugh> does it.
Marc Lesser:Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, well this is, you know, the first, uh, the first chapter in my, my new book, finding Clarity is called, uh, be Curious, not Furious.
Matthew Brickman:Oh, I love that.
Marc Lesser:And I, I think everyone should, that should be sewn into all of our clothing, you know?
Matthew Brickman:Uh, be curious, not furious.
Marc Lesser:Yeah. I mean, any, any, anytime, uh, anytime we're angry again, whether it's, you know, stuck in traffic or, you know, someone cuts us off or someone gives us, you know, says something. Um, and we notice that we're, our, our tendency is to react, to respond. Yeah. And anger, anger can come up, anger or frustration. Uh, yeah. So to be curious to start with curiosity about Oh, wow. Isn't, that's interesting. Yeah. I, I often know cuz I teach this stuff, I teach, you know, emotional intelligence, of course, I, I, I'm, I'm not, um, afraid of saying that my, you know, my wife thinks it's hilarious that I'm teaching emotional intelligence
Matthew Brickman:That's like, my wife thinks it's hilarious that I'm mediating<laugh>.
Marc Lesser:Right. But, you know, just, um, uh, just to start with, uh, yeah. Curiosity about, oh, you know, I, I often as I see myself getting angry or frustrated saying, oh, I'm, I'm doing that thing that I'm often advising other people not to do. That's interesting. Sure. I wonder what that's about.
Matthew Brickman:Sure. Yeah. When it, when I got divorced many, many years ago, um, you know, the, usually the one closest to you knows your buttons probably better even than, you know, your own buttons. And so my ex knew my buttons and she knew what to say, how to say it, when to say it, it to get a reaction. And people used to say to me all the time, Matthew, you're very angry. To which I would say, no, I'm not<laugh>. Right. So finally, I, you know, I mean like, even my kids were like, dad, settle down. Like, what's wrong? So I decided, you know, what, you know, after trying to change her for years, and of course that didn't work and we got divorced, I finally, like you said, without even understanding the emotional intelligence, without understanding stop and look inward, I actually just stopped and look inward. So the first, my, my very first online education type thing was I actually took voluntarily, I took the court ordered anger management program, it was 11 weeks long mark, I learned what my buttons were. And when I learned like, why does this set me off? Why do I react in this way? How should I actually respond? And once I looked inward and figured out who am I, what makes me tech, what drives me, what sets me off, all of a sudden it really changed how I was able to relate not only to my ex, but to my kids and the world around me. And for years now, I mean for what, 15, 16 years, I have recommended that to almost every single client that I've had in mediation, going, just hate it. It will change your life. Because it really is that stop and look inward. It's that se it's that assessment of who are you and how do you then, you know, either react or respond to those around us.
Marc Lesser:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. Especially to notice like as you're saying, what our, what our anger tri triggers are. But then also, um, you know, the other side of that or is what causes us to close down, what causes us to shut down? Those are the, those are the two things Yeah. That drive other people crazy. Yeah. And that, and that get us in trouble in whether it's our marriages or, uh, I think of a, um, uh, a coaching an executive that I'm, that I've been working with, whose trigger is when he feels that someone on his team is being incompetent, he goes from being curious to interrogating.
Matthew Brickman:Oh, okay.
Marc Lesser:So it's, that's it is an interesting, so yeah. And he was just totally unaware that, that he had this trigger about Sure. Like, you know, competence com and, and that's, that can be, that's a pretty common one in the work world, cuz we all wanna be competent.
Matthew Brickman:Sure.
Marc Lesser:Right. So what do we do when we feel that someone is, uh, looking at us questioning our competence or when, or if we're in a leadership role or if we, if we feel like someone isn't being competent and we suddenly are, uh, going from, you know, being their mentor to being their, you know, interrogator.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah, yeah. I, I I I refer to mentor. To mentor
Marc Lesser:<laugh>. Exactly.<laugh>.
Matthew Brickman:So, so I guess I, I guess, I guess my next question is, so when we, you know, when we start labeling, you know, people as difficult people, not just, you know, the behaviors that are difficult and then, you know, as we're talking that may anger us or may trigger us, like in a, in a past hurt, like it brings up a hurt that we may have, then we start to judge someone's entire character. Like they, it's they, and it's not separating the behavior from the person. We just tend to label the person. Right?
Marc Lesser:Yeah. There's a beautiful, I think a useful, uh, rule of thumb that we, you know, we judge ourselves by our intentions. We judge others by the impact their intentions have on us.
Matthew Brickman:Wow.
Marc Lesser:Right. We're we're good people, we're good people we're good people. We're trying our, but as soon as we're there's an ouch, someone does something and there's an ouch, they're they're, they're a bad person. Yeah. They're, you know, what's what, what's, what is their underlying motivation? Yeah. We question, we question their motivation. That's that, you know, again, it's a core, uh, emotional intelligence competency of knowing the difference between impact and intention. Right. That, that anytime, anytime the impact of someone's words is like an ouch to be curious about their intention. Not we again, we go Right. This is, again, I think we're wired for blame. We're wired that we, we have to be, we protect her. It's, it's a protection mechanism.
Matthew Brickman:Sure. Sure. It's, it's, it's interesting. My wife and I went through that for a, the first number of years that we were dating, and then we got married and, you know, just sort of learning each other and it finally came, you know, and we're both in the legal world. Um, she's been a paralegal forever. I've been a mediator. So, um, so, so we both come from this legal world. So what was interesting was, you know, we finally had to come to that realization that, look, she may do something, she may say something, but it's not out of malice. And that, you know, it's a legal word. We're like, it, it's not intentional to hurt, it's not, I'm saying this to getter. I'm, I'm saying this because I love you. And when we start to look from a different perspective, which I think you're talking, looking inward and going, okay, they're not out to get me. They're actually watching out for me. Then it changes the entire dynamic of the conversation.
Marc Lesser:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. And I think to, uh, to understand, you know, I, uh, I spent many years, uh, teaching emotional intelligence to Google engineers and, um, and, and one of them, uh, was this, uh, amazing scientist who he used to often say that we humans are descendants of the nervous apes. That our descendants who were chill and cool, they all got killed. It was the ones who were really adept at scanning for threats. Right. We are, you know, we, we, you know, evolution, we, we've evolved to stay alive, to stay alive, and in order to stay alive, scanning for threats is a really, really important quality to have
Matthew Brickman:Survival of the fittest,
Marc Lesser:Well, survi survival at, you know, especially, and I think it's interesting, I think the, it's those external threats as you were describing with your, with your, uh, your former wife, but also I think it's those internal threats that we're always looking, am I okay? How am I, you know, am I, am, am I being seen as good and competent? That there's that? Yeah. There's that scanning that happens. And, and this is part I think of that, you know, it's that it, it's easy. It's an easy throwaway statement. Oh, look within, but no, like become, actually become more curious and familiar with, oh, what, what is that process? How am I, how am I scanning for threats? We all, we all do it. It's part of our makeup.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. And I think, you know, you know, when I'm sitting in mediation and trying to help, you know, either a mother or father or husband and wife, you know, none of that is present. It's, you know, finger, finger blaming, you know, they did this, therefore it caused this. And it's like, okay, but what, what role did you play? Like they didn't just do it on their own, like, what role? You know? And, and, and you know, I've, I have found a lot of times with, you know, infidelity that, okay, well, what caused them to go look in the first place? Like, you know, nobody's leaving a happy home. Like, if it's a happy home, why are you even looking anywhere? Like, okay, but there's, and of course that's n word, and that's, that's uncomfortable for a lot of people.
Marc Lesser:Yeah. I like to, in those situations, I like to ask the question, were you maybe 1% responsible? Yeah. You know, two, you know, any, anything, is there even a whiff, even a whiff of that you might have had something to do with this. This is a relationship, this is a situation. It's not, it's rarely 100% them.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Well, and, and I guess as I, as I've gotten older and, you know, been doing this for so long and my kids are now, you know, much older and finally got through my own crazy, this and whatnot, I finally got to a point, um, and, and, and I share this all the time, you know, with, with clients, but I've gotten to the point where the relationship to me is much more important than being Right. But that is take again, looking inward going, look, I don't have to be Right. It's not about pride. It's not about ego. I actually, and, and it's not that, oh, I'm just a, you could just walk all over me. It's that, no, you know what? I pick and choose my battles, and you know what, I don't have to be right. I'll be wrong all day long. I, I just want the relationship. And it, it used never to be that way. Like I had to have the final word. I had to try to convince you of my point of view, just like you said, like, this is my planet<laugh>. Um, but it, but it, it's been changing. Um, you know, as as I get older going, I, I just really desire the relationship. And if that means that I have to say I'm sorry, fine. Yeah. You know, and it's not a manipulation thing again, it's not that I'm just rolling over and I'm just an easy one, easy pushover. It's that, look, I'm, I'm changing that. I'm changing, like I'm looking inside of who am I, what makes me tick. And I actually desire relationship more than I care about proving my point.
Marc Lesser:Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, I think we go, you know, that the proving, proving one's point is kind of a kind of an ego thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and those ego things are not very good for building sustainable, intimate, you know, uh, quality relationships. Yeah. As we, as we at some point, you know, and I think it happens at different times in our lives. We are priority shift, and we realized that Right. Relationships are really important. Yeah. I mean, even, um, especially, you know, especially our, our closest relationships, but even in the work world, it's
Matthew Brickman:Absolutely
Marc Lesser:Everything. You know, and they're, they might be different than friends relationships, but those, those working relationships are all about trust and connection and
Matthew Brickman:Negotiations compromise
Marc Lesser:<laugh>. Yeah. And, and I think this is actually a, a new, uh, realization, a relatively new realization, you know, that I think much of the, much of the work world structure was a, a kind of rooting out humanness, right? This, this assumption that humanness and emotions bad, bad gets in the way.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah.
Marc Lesser:And now because of the way that we're working and the, the level of collaboration, what it takes to build stuff, whether it's software or airplanes or hamburgers, yeah. Um, that, um, working together that there is a, a clear relationship for the quality of relationships and effectiveness and production. Like, wow. Like who, who
Matthew Brickman:Thought we can get so much more done if we actually just work together. I mean, there's, there is actually, I mean, and, and I think this goes back to, you know, just look, stopping and looking inward is there's more, if, if we act, I think if we actually pay attention, there's more that unites us than divides us. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but sometimes we can walk into a room and find the one or two things that didn't get done, not the 98% that did get done. And there's so much that, that just in a normal conversation, it's like we could actually have in common. And if we look to that commonality, we can be more productive. Whether it's an in a, like you said, a personal relationship, a work relationship business, um, we can just get more done.
Marc Lesser:Yeah. Yeah. Ma, many years ago I was involved in some kind of mediation with, um, Arabs and Jews. Okay. And they walked in, you know, these two groups walked into the room and they hated each other's guts. Sure. Right? Yeah. Bad people, bad horrible people. But, but as soon as they started talking about their children and, and that the, the, the, it was like, it was amazing to see that a little bit of humanity and commonality and those, those ideas that they had been brainwashed with over, over a lifetime started, started to loosen, and yeah. And they could feel those, those connections
Matthew Brickman:And yeah. Um, I did, um, I did a, uh, a, a course with, uh, Dr. Josh Weiss. He was one of the two men that actually, um, created the Abraham Path, um, over in, uh, the Middle East through, uh, Harvard's program on negotiation. And, um, fascinating work. Um, I, like I said, I did the Abraham Path. I was supposed to go over to Jordan and do a section of the Abraham path with him, but of course, COVID came, they had to cancel. They haven't been able to reopen Jordan and do that, but they did a virtual version and it was really, really fascinating learning, you know, how, um, you know, he was one of two people that actually was able, like you said, to find that commonality between the Israelis, the Palestinians, the Arabs, and figure out, okay, what commonality we've got Father Abraham, we both acknowledge Abraham as our father. Okay, well, how do we then build, you know, a safe space? How do we build up our countries? How do we, you know, uh, build tourism? How do we help both of you, even though you have differences? And they were able to then, you know, find that commonality, whether it was historical documents, the Quran, the Bible, and go, okay, here's the path that Abraham, who we up all have in common. They found that commonality. And let's figure out, okay, let's trace his path through the Middle East from birth to death, and now let's create a path. And it's a safe zone that all the countries come around and say, okay, we are, we are, we're going to not deal with, you know, not let anybody get hurt, protect everybody. This is a safe place. And it's crazy. It's crazy that it's worked. Yeah. Like you said, it's that commonality. Occasionally Sydnee and I will be releasing q and a bonus episodes where we will answer your questions and give you a personal shoutout.
Sydney Mitchell:If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that's info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.
Matthew Brickman:For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.