Susan Chestnutt interviews Matthew Brickman: Marriage, Parenting, Relationships are a Business

Matthew Brickman is interviewed by Susan Chestnutt of The Chestnutt Law Firm on  her podcast From Foster Care to Family Law: A Child Welfare Focus to discuss his passion for mediation and family law with some insightful tips for parents and divorcing couples.

If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479

Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.

Download Matthew's book on iTunes for FREE:
You're Not the Only One - The Agony of Divorce: The Joy of Peaceful Resolution

Matthew Brickman
President iMediate Inc.
Mediator 20836CFA
iMediateInc.com

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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.

Transcript

Mediate This! Podcast: 0:00

Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

Susan Chestnut: 0:13

This is Susan Chestnutt back again with another podcast episode of From Foster Care to Family Law. And thank you for joining me and a very special guest, Matthew Brickman. Matthew Brickman is the owner, operator and mediator for IAP Mediation, a family mediation service. And he has mediated almost 3000 cases. Thanks for coming on today. Uh , really am looking forward to the things that we're gonna talk about, but how, how did you get into mediating faculty?

Matthew Brickman: 0:42

Thank you Susan, for having me on. Um, how did I get into it? Simply, I got divorced <laugh>.

Susan Chestnut: 0:49

Um , is that how you wrote the book?

Matthew Brickman: 0:51

And Yeah. I mean, I got divorced. Um, my parents were marriage counselors and , uh, so yeah, I got, I got divorced and , um, easy divorce . Quick and easy. My ex and I filled out papers on Mother's Day night, filed the next day, divorced three days before Father's Day. Uh, but a year later turned into a 12 year war. Uh oh . And so experience. And also the judge , um, who or who was tired of seeing us. Um, cause we were just high litigation. Um, when we finally finished, and you would know as an attorney, when we finally finished, my docket entry was 520. It was high litigation, but somewhere in the, after, I guess a year or so of fighting. Um, and we were already divorced. We were just constantly fighting. Um, the judge ordered us to mediation. I'd never heard of it, didn't know anything about it. Um, but I had a great attorney, phenomenal mediator , um, and was sitting in mediation and I remember the mediator going back and forth, you know, shuttle mediation. And I remember sitting there, just looking around the room when she went in the other room going, this is the coolest process in the world. I could do this. Now, at the time, I had a cosmetology license,

Susan Chestnut: 2:10

<laugh> ,

Matthew Brickman: 2:11

Um , and I had a high school diploma. And so it was like, okay, what do I need in order to become a mediator? Like, this is my calling, this is what I want to do. So I had in the back of my brain , um, that, and I remember as, as, as a kid, I remember hearing that in California you could actually take the bar without ever going to law school. And if you happen to pass us like the toughest bar in the country, I think it still is like the toughest bar . It

Susan Chestnut: 2:44

Still is. And, and I think that's still true for the most part. And I'm still mind blown that that exists.

Matthew Brickman: 2:50

Yeah. So, so I was like, you know, cuz I had, when I, when I thought about becoming a mediator, I called the , the , uh, dispute Resolution Center up in Tallahassee. You know, I live in Florida. And so I called and said, okay, what do I need to become a mediator? This was, this was comical. The lady says, well, you know, do you have a law degree? No, no, I don't have one of those. Okay. Do you have a master's degree? Nope . Nope. Don't have one of those either. She goes, did you go to college? Yeah. Okay. Do you have a bachelor's degree? No. Now this was funny cuz and , and , and so I've never drank alcohol , okay? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when I went to college, I was up in North Dakota. We had a four year university. We didn't have a junior college. We didn't have a sta you know, we, there was no associate degrees. You go to school for four years, you go a bachelor's. But she says to me, she goes , uh, well, do you have aa do you have an associate's degree? Do you have an aa? And I, and I , and I said to her, I said, no, I don't drink <laugh> . No , no . I know at this point this lady is probably going, okay, is this, is this a prank? Like, is is this a prank? She goes, she goes, do you have aa? I'm like, no, I don't drink. She goes, no, an associate's associate's degree. I'm like, oh, no. She goes, did you go to high school? Yes, I went to high school. Did you graduate? Yeah, I graduated. So you've got a diploma? Yes, I have one of those. Do you have any other, any other licensing degrees? I have a cosmetology license because when I was 21, I went to cosmetology school and then I ended up teaching hair color for an international hair color company. That was fun. But now I now like, through the throes of divorce and stuff, I'm like, I need more education. I need to do something and I want to do mediation. So she says, okay, you're gonna need to go to school. You're gonna need an associate's degree, a bachelor's degree, and then you're gonna need either a law degree or a master's degree. I'm like, okay. Now, at the time, I was a single dad. I had my children , uh, my ex had given me my kids and I had them, you know, 80% of the time. So I'm like, I gotta go online. Like I, I don't have time to go to a physical school. So I looked all over the place and I found Concord Law School out in California. Perfect. It's California. So I called up the California bar and I said, Hey, is this true? Can, can I just sit for the bar? Like <laugh> , I have a high school diploma, Susan. I'm like, can I just sit for the bar? <laugh> <laugh> ? And they said, they said, how old are you? I think at the time I was like 27, 28 years old. And, and , and the lady goes, yeah, that sounds about right, <laugh>. And I'm like, and I'm like, what do you mean it sounds about right? She goes, well, when did you hear this? I said, I don't know, probably when I was 10, 11, 12 years . She goes, yeah , that sounds about right. She goes, that used to be the way it was, but that's not the way it is anymore. I was like, oh. But she was humored that I actually remembered back when I was a little kid that that was how it was. That is not how it is anymore. You have to, you have to go to law school. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, so, so they put me in touch then with Concord Law School. Oh my gosh, Susan, I almost had the same exact conversation I had with the Dispute resolution center. Well, okay, do you have a bachelor's degree? No. Do you have an , do you have an associate's degree? Now? I knew Don't tell 'em that you don't drink. Right , right. Like, I knew like an associate's degree. I know what that is. Now. I'm like, no, I don't have one of those. Okay, well, you're gonna need one of those and then maybe, maybe we'll let you into our law school. Okay, well, I need to go online. You're an online law law school. Still currently the only online law school in the country. Uh , but I said, I said, well, so where would you go if you were me online for an undergrad? They said, well, we have a sister school, Kaplan University. Great. They said, well, we can connect you. Great. Not a problem. So now they put me in contact with Kaplan. So Kaplan goes, do you have a high school diploma ? I'm like, I know the answers now. Yes. Yes. I have one of those. <laugh> , do you have any other college education? Well, I did go to college for a year, but I don't have any degrees. They said, well, let's see your transcript, and maybe some of those will transfer over. And they did, which was awesome. Um, when I originally went to college , um, I was going for criminal justice. I wanted to do either d e a , um, I wanted to do US marshal service. I thought those would be fun. Um, right ,

Susan Chestnut: 7:40

Right. After cosmetology?

Matthew Brickman: 7:42

No, no, no. This was before cosmetology <laugh>. Yeah . I know. Well, because , well, because Susan, Susan makes perfect sense. I know, I know. Perfect sense. Right. So, so what was interesting, so we have to back up the story just a little bit. So I, I was scheduled and I say scheduled. I was scheduled to graduate high school in 1992. I finished in 1991, but was doing dual enrollment long before, like, we're in 2023. Dual enrollment. People do that all day long. Like, you're gonna go to high school and you're gonna go to college at the same time, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was doing this back in 1991 before it was something like I had to get permission. Like, I went to high school in the morning and went to college in the afternoon. I was 16 years old. And so I graduated mid-semester, graduated early, and , um, and so, and so I'm talking to Kaplan and they're like, okay, well then, yeah, get us your transcript. The classes that I did take, which were like meteorology, I thought that, I thought that would be like Vanna White, like pointing at a screen, like, Hey, I'm on tv. Had no idea. I had to know the shape and name of clouds. Like, really? So , um, so I said to him, I said, well, how long is this whole degree thing gonna take? They said, well, two years for an associate's, another two years for a bachelor's. I'm like, what? And then I'm like, well, then how long for law school? How , how long was your law school?

Susan Chestnut: 9:09

Three years.

Matthew Brickman: 9:10

Three years? Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'm like, seven years to become a mediator. No, no, no, no. It wasn't seven years Susan. Because then once I get a law degree, well now I have to go get the mediator training, then I have to do the mentorship. I'm like, oh my gosh, I wanna be like 40 years old before this thing happens. I talked to my grandmother. My grandmother says, Matthew, 7, 8, 10 years is gonna come and go. It can come and go with or without a degree. That's your choice.

Susan Chestnut: 9:42

Oh , I like her.

Matthew Brickman: 9:43

Yeah. So I'm like, okay, one, one foot in front of the other, I'm, I'm gonna live my life and I'm just gonna plug away. And so long story short, took me two and a half years to get a bachelor's degree online. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> working full-time and raising kids. I was , uh, I was intent. Um , it was something that I really, really, really wanted. Yeah. Um ,

Susan Chestnut: 10:11

Different . And you focused a lot on the paralegal stuff at the time too , didn't

Matthew Brickman: 10:14

You ? So , so, so my associate's degree was in paralegal studies. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And then my bachelor's was in pre-law, so mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I, it's interesting. My entire undergrad was intentionally structured to become a mediator. So everything that I learned, I use every single day. Know, you know, it wasn't , I've seen it, it wasn't like, okay, I went for like an associate's in phys ed, and then now I'm a mediator, right? Like, I went for , so I learned legal writing, I learned interpersonal , uh, conflict. I like all the stuff that you and I use that you as an attorney, me as immediate the things that we use with our clients and with the parties all day long. I use it every single day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . So , uh, so at graduation , uh, at graduation, one of the professors there , or sorry, the dean of the school , um, um, was also one of the professors at Concord. And he says to me, he goes, well, Matthew, what are your plans now? I said, I think I , I think I , I think I'm gonna have to go to law school , uh, because I wanna become a mediator. He says, well, if you do, I'm an adjunct professor at Concord. Looked me up. I'm like, okay, great. And I'm like, and I , and I knew Concord cuz Concord sent me to Kaplan. But then I was like, then I found out that Nova down in Fort Lauderdale, and I lived in Palm Beach. I heard that Nova had a master's in mediation, master's in, really? Yeah. They, they , they , I didn't know that. Yeah. They, they have a master's in conflict resolution. And I'm , and , and it was only two years. And I'm like, okay, wait a second. This is two years, not three. And it was a bit cheaper than law school. So I'm like, okay, <laugh> . So I, so, so, so I, I graduated with my undergrad on September 10th. And on September 11th with , which happens to be my birthday, I started my master's degree. So I graduated one day, started the very next day. It was the worst educational experience I have ever had my entire life. I'm 49, almost 49, like the worst. After three months, I went, I graduated Cuma sum laude , graduated top of my class in Kaplan. And I went from getting sh I got a straight A's in one B to now getting F's. Uh , I can't write a paper to save my life. And I'm like, what in the world is going on? Well, you know, because of what we do every day , there's the law, it's pretty black and white like it is here it is now, yeah, the judges have some judicial interpretation, but the law is the law. Well, when you go to psychology, it's so subjective. It's whoever's reading it can interpret it however they choose. Well, all of a sudden, all of my writings, which are very analytical, legal based , are now being torn apart. Well, but it could also be interpreted this and could be interpret. I'm like, no, they're , no, no, no, no , no. You're misinterpreting. Well, no. Cannot get a straight answer. That drove me crazy. And of course I'm bombing it. So I called my parents and said, I'm dropping out. They're like, what? Because I'm going to law school. I'm like, I'm going to Concord. So I call up Concord. I said, I need to talk to Dean Weston. They said, they said, okay, well, what is this pertaining to? And I said, well, this is Matthew Brickman. Dean Weston told me to get ahold of him. It was a couple of months ago. They said, well, he's not in. We'll take a message. Well, Dean Weston remembered me. Oh, wow. So when I talked to him, he said, you know what? You are going to be the first , um, applicant for our new pilot program. Okay, well what does that mean? Well, I'm gonna have you talk to so-and-so, and I don't remember what his name was. Um, call him and he will give you all the details. Okay, cool. So I'm looking at the calendar. It's like December 1st, and they have the , um, the LSATs coming up, like the second week of December, right before Christmas. And I'm thinking, and then of course Concord is starting January. And I'm like, I have to get scheduled to take my LSATs so I can get these and get in and all stuff . So I call the guy and he says to me , um, welcome to Concord Law School. And I'm like, yeah . He said, he said, you know, you're our first applicant for our pilot program. Welcome to Concord Law School. I'm like, okay, so , um, I need to get scheduled for my LSATs. He's like, no. I'm like, what do you mean? No? He goes, welcome to Concord Law School. I'm like, what does that mean? Welcome to Concord Law School. He says, welcome to Concord Law School. I'm like, well, okay, what about my interview? He goes, this is your interview. I said, well, how's it going? Good. Okay, good . What about, what about my writing samples? He goes, I've already seen all of your writing samples. I read all of them, or I mean, I mean, I've read of them. There was like, I think there was 121, a hundred and something , uh, papers that I wrote in my undergrad. Um, and he goes, he goes, yeah. He goes, he goes, I read 'em . He goes, welcome to Concord Law School. Okay . Okay. So this is my interview. You've read my writing samples. I need to take the LSATs so that you can say , he goes, okay, you're not understanding Matthew. Welcome to Concord Law School. So I'm in, he goes, yes, you start in January, but what about my LSATs? He goes, well, this is our pilot program. You're an applicant from our sister school. You graduated top of your class. You're an automatic admit no LSATs. I'm like, what? He goes, we'll send you your books. You start in January, enjoy the holidays. Welcome to Concord Law School. I was like, what? That's crazy. I know. So the timeline, like my, my timeline so far, four years for an undergrad. Now that turned into two and a half years. Okay, cool. I'm, I'm pumped now. I'm in law school. So I started in law school and all of a sudden started getting a's again, like, okay, I know how my brain is wired, right? Like, I know how my brain is wired. Um, now my parents were therapists. My dad was a pastor of a church . They did , um, they did marriage counseling. So I was, I had a lot of the whole psychology and all stuff. And now my dad, he's, he does coaching and he's been, I don't even know how many certifications from Myers Briggs, the personality assessments. So I do up with that side of the brain. So I under , this explains so much about you. So I understand it, but my brain is more black and white, right and wrong. I understand the law. Yes, I understand interpretation, but I also understand people. And so I got into law school, I'm a year into it. And Florida changes the law. It used to be that you had to have a law degree or a master's degree , um, and then you could then do the training program, do the mentorship, and then you could be certified as a mediator. Well, they changed it and said, well, if you have done, I think it was 200 mediations in a two year or five year period, well then you can get in based on experience, not just a degree. Which actually is pretty cool because there's a lot, as you know, as an attorney that they didn't teach you in a book.

Susan Chestnut: 17:54

Oh

Matthew Brickman: 17:54

No. They didn't teach you. You learned it practicing law. Right. Well, so going back to when I was at Kaplan, when I got my associate's degree, I took the , um, certification class for mediation for county civil. And I figured I , like , I want to do family law, but I'm like, I don't want to cut my teeth on family law. We're talking about somebody's kids. We're talking about their homes, we're talking about their livelihoods in their retirement. Let me figure out this mediation thing. When there's not that much on , you know, risk, there's not much online. Right. On or on the line. So I started with small claims court. So I would, I I would go and volunteer and do small claims mediation. What's interesting, Susan, that's more difficult than family.

Susan Chestnut: 18:47

I believe it cuz I don't know a thing about it. So

Matthew Brickman: 18:49

That No , no , no , for me , no , no . Well , no. It's more difficult to help people resolve than family law. Because in family law everybody's getting something. Hmm . Right. But when it's small claims, you know what, there's not much there. There's a declared winner, there's a declared loser, and you know what? You will spend your last dime because it's more emotion driven and emotion settled. Not just emotion . Like you and I deal with people that are emotionally driven, but then there is a, but look, everyone's gonna get something. We negotiate and then everyone's getting something. Small claims is much more difficult to negotiate than family law. But that's where I learned. Well, so when I started doing that with my undergrad, just volunteering, getting not getting paid, then guess what? Now I'm into Concord Law School a year they changed the law. And because of all of my volunteer and everything I had done for those years leading up, I got grandfathered in under the new law. Well then that's fantastic. I didn't have to finish law school and pay all of those fees. Um, and so then it was like, okay, fine. Well, so I did have to go, do you know, so I'd already been certified county civil. So then I went and did the family training. Um, and then I'm like, okay, like got my training. Oh my gosh, do you know how hard it was to get my mentorship? Nobody would do my mentorship because basically they look at it as, oh, I'm training up my competition. I'm not going to mentor Matthew so he can get her certification. It took for To get my to , to actually get my certification because nobody would do my mentorship. Now, at the time I lived in Palm Beach County, I went to the Palm Beach County Courthouse. Not just one of them , not just two of them , but three of them. And said to their ADR departments, their alternative divorce resolution department said, I'm a new mediator, I'd like to get my mentorship. Nope, the courthouse wouldn't do 'em. Private mediators wouldn't do 'em. And I lived in Palm Beach County. I sent out letters to all of the judges in Palm Beach County, Broward County, Martin County, and St. Lucie County going, I'm trying to get my mentorship. So I had a lady who was running the 19th judicial circuit up in Martin County. She was running the ADR department, but she was based out of St . Lucie . And she said, come up here. Cuz guess what? I'm not her competition in St . Lucie . I'm all the way down in Palm Beach. So I would drive 45 minutes up occasionally to get a mentorship done. Eventually I got my mentorship done and then I was like, I'm certified family law mediator. Great. Now you're ready to learn and you gotta build a business. And so and so that's how I got started. Um , and

Susan Chestnut: 21:59

But you had a lot of business background in there as well in some of your education. Yeah . And I, I've heard you myself and I think taking the emotion out of it is one of the most important steps in family law. Yeah . And you are able to take this, this is a business. You're both CEOs of your child or your children Yeah . Approach. And I think

Matthew Brickman: 22:19

Start

Susan Chestnut: 22:19

Talking really worked plan . It really worked .

Matthew Brickman: 22:22

Yeah. Yeah . Because

Susan Chestnut: 22:23

For the business portion.

Matthew Brickman: 22:25

Yeah. Because, because again , um, here's the best way I can describe mediation to people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you remember the game as a child, hungry, hungry hippo. Remember when you had like the four hippos and the marbles and you'd sit there and hit that hippo as fast as possible to grab as many marbles as you can.

Susan Chestnut: 22:48

Mm-hmm .

Matthew Brickman: 22:48

<affirmative> . That's what we do, Susan. We're playing, you and I are guiding these people. Whether it is a relocation, whether it's a divorce, whether it's paternity, whether it's parental alienation, it doesn't matter when they come and see us, emotions are high, resources are scarce, and they're hitting that hippo as fast as they can to grab as many marbles. They don't even know what they're grabbing, but they're relying on us to help them get as much as possible. And I look at it as , I don't, I'm not there to help you get, I'm there to help you understand what you're getting. Because just because you get something doesn't mean you win. You may get 50% of something you don't care about in instead of a hundred percent of something you do. And so in my mind, that's the game we play that and of course, deal or no deal love that show Howie Mandel deal or no deal , deal. I'm like, is this a good deal? Like deal. It's like, okay, good. You've got a good deal. Like that's what we're playing , like dealer , no deal. Right? So, you know, what we do is like a game show. Um, but there's actual prizes. You were awarded a house, congratulations, <laugh> . Right? You , you got a retirement captain , you got half of a child. Like whatever it is, you know? But again, there's somebody's getting something, right?

Susan Chestnut: 24:11

That is true compared to

Matthew Brickman: 24:12

Civil. And so, and so, that's how I got into it. Of course then it was a matter of building. So I , so, so then I first, my, my, my first job as a mediator was I actually got a contract job at the first courthouse that I went to that said, no, Matthew, we're not doing your mentorship. And the lady that actually told me , no , we're not doing your mentorship, ended up to be one of my very good friends there. And we laughed about it. I'm like, remember when I came in? And you said no, she's like, I was told we just have to tell everybody that. And, and I'm like, but , and she goes, but somehow you got through. And I'm like, yeah, I had to go to Port St. Lucie to make it happen. She goes, you did what? And I was like, yeah, I was determined. So Susan once started out, remember I said, okay, we were at 4, 5, 6, 7. About seven, seven and a half year journey. Actually took two and a half , three, almost four years. So about half the time. And my , that's,

Susan Chestnut: 25:18

That's so , that's

Matthew Brickman: 25:19

Incredible. And my , and my grandmother told me, she said, she said, she said, honey, one day at a time, one foot at a time, if you had never started, you wouldn't have been done. And half the time, and it's , and , and so I , you know, I, I encourage people, I'm like, look, you know what, just start. You have no idea what's down that path, right? Just get going. Like, if that's your dream, do it because you don't know. I mean, like these were, and, and , and look, I had no idea that Florida as a state was gonna change their rules. I didn't know that. I didn't know that California had already changed their rules. I did not know that Concord Law, by the time I finished, was going to start a pilot program. Like things, there's no way, no way that I would've known being like, yeah, I'm gonna do this cuz that that's gonna happen. And that opportunity is sitting there. I didn't know that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there's a lot of times and you know, as an attorney and some , and you know, as a mediator it would be nice to have a crystal ball, right? To be able to tell a client, you know, you tell a client, you know what, do this, do this. In two years this is gonna change. So look, we're gonna guide you down this path. Be prepared for it. Yes, the change is gonna happen. Come back and see me then , then we're gonna , we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know know. So we help the clients the best we can with the information we have at that moment.

Susan Chestnut: 26:49

That is true. But I think the psychology of understanding people and being able to give them advice that can be still relevant for their future is something that's also very unique.

Matthew Brickman: 27:01

Yeah.

Susan Chestnut: 27:02

Did you know that I had my mediator license as well?

Matthew Brickman: 27:04

I did. Yes.

Susan Chestnut: 27:05

Have I ever told you that? Yeah. Yeah . Nobody wants to use me cuz apparently they think I should just go to court. But, you know, good attorney. It taught me a lot of skills as far as how to get people to kind of settle down a little bit. Yeah . And look past their emotions into what they're actually doing.

Matthew Brickman: 27:22

Yeah. But which, which, you know, whether it's a parenting plan, we're talking about, you know, setting up for the children, you know, like you said, with the way that I've described a parenting plan is I like starting off with the title. What's the parenting plan? Like? What , what's the title ? It says parenting. It doesn't say a child plan. It says a parenting plan. We've got about 14, 15 pages of rules for you adults that are probably acting like children. Your children don't need the rules. You need the rules. And that's why we call this a parenting plan. Now, what is a parenting plan? Parenting plan is a default plan. The idea is it's a lot like an umbrella. You and I live in south Florida, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, well, I have an umbrella in my, in my car. I carry it every single day if it happens to rain, I am so glad that I have my umbrella. And if it doesn't, I don't care. Fine. Well that's a parenting plan. You get a detailed plan, you put it in the drawer and you ignore it. If, if mom and dad can get along and can figure it out, great, awesome. But if all hell breaks loose and somehow they can't get along, thank God I got that umbrella. You pull it out and that's when you use it. So sometimes in mediation the parents are like, we don't have these issues, we don't have these issues, we don't have these issues. And I'm like, okay, pretend you do. That's when you're gonna pull this out. Right? Eventually you might, I'm glad you don't. Now the court is thrilled that you don't now, but if you do, well at least you have this as a default. So like you said, you know, with the , with the business sense, I have told people too , your parenting plan is like the corporate docs that structure the company. What is the company? Well, the company is Little Johnny. Little Johnny is the company. And you know what mom, dad, you too under Florida statute that says that the court shall order that parental responsibility be shared unless the court finds a shared parental is detrimental to the child. Well, the two of you are going to be 50, 50 CEOs of the company. The company is little Johnny. These are the corporate docs that structure the company. So you got two aspects of your parenting plan, two main aspects. You have decision making and you have time sharing . So decision making says, all right , you two are CEOs of this company. You guys can't go rogue on each other. You guys have 50 50 CEO power. No one has 51%. Nobody can override the other parent. You guys have to discuss this. You have to have board meetings. Okay. How do you have board meetings? Well, any board meeting of a company, there's usually a paralegal there sitting, taking minutes because everything has to be in writing. Well, the two of you are going to take your own minutes. So all of your discussions regarding little Johnny are going to be in writing. So, you know, in a parenting plan, we have a whole section on communication between mom and dad. Right. So depending on their level of of or ability , um, or emotion , if we can hopefully get it outta the way. But depending on what's happened, usually we've got about four different ways that we can do communication. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, well, two ways with three tools. So you , one way if they're fine is text and email, it's written. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> fine. Not a problem. If they're having issues, well then we've got three, well, three main programs that, you know, for the past, what, 16, 17 years I've been aware of, which is Family Wizard, our Family Wizard , um, talking parents and then app close , a p P c l o s E , three different tools that are there to help people if they don't have that great of communication. But that's, that's all of their minutes from their board meeting regarding little Johnny. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay , great. Well then the second aspect of the parenting plan is time sharing . We have 365 days out of the year as the CEOof the company. What days mom or you responsible to go into the office and you're in charge of running the company and dad, what days are you responsible as the CEO to go into the office and run the company? There's times sharing the two of you will never be in the office on the same day. And the , then we're gonna talk about exchanges, pick up , drop off facilitation. Like once we structure the company, well how do we make it work? Right. Right . And so there you go. This is not emotion . And I tell 'em, I say, look, you know, a lot of times people do not do the transition that is supposed to happen. And I think a lot of that can be partially due to the mediator and partially due to the attorney guiding them. And it's, it's, it's our job to educate people like, you know, and, and that's why you have a podcast. I have a podcast. Like we want the general public to be educated to know, because nobody's telling them this stuff. Right? Like,

Susan Chestnut: 32:30

No, nobody tells anyone anything. Not even really, honestly those that should be,

Matthew Brickman: 32:35

Yeah. I mean, you know it , I feel like a lot of times in life it's like when I went to Nova and did the master's in psychology where well, it could be interpreted this way. That check , come on, just be honest and tell me like mm-hmm. <affirmative> I need, and especially when you need help and information, do not beat around the bush. Tell me if I'm making a wrong decision, tell me so I can course correct . So I don't fail just mm-hmm . <affirmative> tell me. People are so secretive with information and I'm like, why? Like even even with helping me get my certification so I can go help people and you're gonna be secretive and you don't want me, what? I mean I now do about 10 plus mentorships a year. I will help anyone that wants to get their mentorship done, why they're not my competition. My competition are the people I went to school with and became a mediator with 17 years ago.

Susan Chestnut: 33:34

But there's also enough people that need help to go around. I know . So why do we all pretend like it has to be a , a marginal amount that can

Matthew Brickman: 33:42

No,

Susan Chestnut: 33:43

It , it shouldn't be that way.

Matthew Brickman: 33:44

No it shouldn't. And so, and so with the parenting plan, I'm like, look, you know, you guys have gone through three levels of a relationship, acquaintance, intimacy, loss of intimacy, and this is whether or not they're married or not. Like it could be a one night stand and they quickly went through all three levels. Hi, yes , you want to hang out, Hey, you want to have sex ? Hey, I'm pregnant and I don't want you around. Well there you go. You went through the three levels of relationship right. In one night. Yeah. You know. Now granted then you might have the marriages that last longer than the honeymoon. And I did have that where they went on the honeymoon, came back, Susan, we were dividing up wedding gifts, gift cards, checks, cash. I'm like, that didn't last long. Right? Um, but in either case we went through the three levels. Well what happens in those three levels? Nothing. There's no accountability, there's no responsibility and there's no consequence. Everybody makes up their own rules and inside their own relationship. And if it does not work out, which is when they call you or me, well now when they're in that this isn't working stage anymore, that loss of intimacy, that's a horrible place to be without accountability, responsibility, and consequence. Right. Well so what's the parenting plan? It's the corporate docs that for the first time ever in the relationship, you are going to transfer out of a place of emotion into a business-like relationship. Again, you're two CEOs, you don't have to like or dislike who you're in business with. It's business. We're exchanging time and information, money , children. It's business.

Susan Chestnut: 35:26

It's business. But the business dynamic and the business structure has changed because you and I both know that ordinarily and , and let's just say a couple for example, is raising a child together and then they separate and need this rule book that we wanna give them

Matthew Brickman: 35:40

Parenting plan. Yeah .

Susan Chestnut: 35:42

Normally there is a default parent that does a majority of one thing or the other. Normally there is one parent who is the substantial income earner and works a lot of hours and they share responsibilities differently. And you and I both know that that doesn't mean that those roles will change or won't change in the future. Cuz inevitably they have to. Yeah. And in most cases I find that the person that has both of them, they both think that the role that they have at the time of their division and reincorporation as you would say, that they think that those roles continue, but they don't. They change.

Matthew Brickman: 36:19

Yeah. I had a media , so, so I had a mediation, let's see, three days ago, three days ago. Mom has been a stay-at-home mom. They've got three kids. They have a five month old , I think it was a six year old and a 12 year old . Okay . Mom has been a stay-at-home mom, dad, he's the breadwinner. Okay . Um, he's in law enforcement and he's the breadwinner. Now, you know, law enforcement, they have their shift, then they take also extra details. A lot of them also have a a second job, extra training job . Or do they have extra training? I mean that's just the nature of the beast, right?

Susan Chestnut: 36:59

It is . Yeah.

Matthew Brickman: 37:01

So dad has been saying to mom for a number of years, I need you to at least get a part-time job. I need help, I need help. I need, you know, financial help. And she's like, I'm a stay-at-home mom. I'm taking care of the kids Now these were the roles that they created inside of their relationship. Fine. Well, so then of course dad ends up filing for divorce and it's very , you know, as you know, it's very emotional. So what does he do? He does what A lot of typical workers and, and I would say more men than women I know that I did originally. Um, when, when I, you know, when , when my ex and I started our war, I , uh, a very healthy distraction was I buried myself in my work. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . So what he did during the litigation so far, and I think it was maybe like eight months or so, nine mo almost the nine month mark, which isn't that too deep into litigation with, with their attorneys. But he had just buried himself in work because it was just so emotional. Buried himself in work. And what did she do? She just continued being the stay-at-home mom. Now there was a , uh, standing status quo order. So he also had to maintain all the bills and expenses, but he moved out. Well he also now has to. And so he has to maintain his own as well . At the end of the month there's a hundred bucks leftover . Like that was it. Right? So as you said , so, so in this whole negotiation and this parenting plan, that's where we started. Not with the finances, not with alimony, not with the home, not with any, let's talk about parenting. May have been a good husband, bad husband, good wife, bad wife. Who cares. Is she a good mom?

Susan Chestnut: 38:49

That's exactly it .

Matthew Brickman: 38:50

Is she, is he a good dad? And you know what? Yeah. They were both very complimentary of each other going when he's around he's good. He takes care of the kids, he does help, but he's not around that much cuz he's always working. And I said to him, how is she Trust her. Trust her , trust her , trust her. Absolutely. Okay, so shared parental responsibility. What does that mean? So we went through the entire thing. Here's shared parental responsibility and so Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna have shared parental, we're gonna equally make decisions. I trust his decision making even though he is not around. Yes, I trust hers. Okay, fine. Great. I mean they did have three kids. So then it comes to the time sharing . They were very creative because of his work, figuring out the time sharing . But we did have to have the conversation. You do realize, and I had to have the conversation with her, you do realize you're gonna have to get a job job . And I had to have the conversation with him going, do you realize you're not gonna be able to work these hours and perform on this parenting plan? And he said, yeah, I know. So you real realize that your in income is gonna go down and your ability to support the kids and run this thing. Yeah. And you understand you're gonna have to contribute to this. Yeah . Okay, great. We got the parenting plan done. Great. We, you know, they figured that out. But then when it came to the earning, well then she's like, oh, well he , he works three jobs. Okay. Logistically, I don't care anything logistically. Can he work those three jobs and do this parenting plan you guys just created? Well, no, no, no. That's not possible. Well, but you were okay with the parenting plan. Yeah. Well that's not possible. And how are you gonna be able to then pay for your bills and expenses? Cuz this standing status quo orders going away, here's the child support based on all of this. And it's like, and she and , and she's like , uh, I guess I'm gonna have to get a job. Exactly. So instead of forcing it now, he was trying to force it. You need to get a job, you need. And of course , yeah.

Susan Chestnut: 41:00

But that's starting with the end instead of starting at the beginning. Correct . Correct . And showing people how to get to where they need to go.

Matthew Brickman: 41:06

Which, which which as a mediator, and I think probably as a , as, as an attorney to a point too, but especially my, my viewpoint as a mediator and especially living, you know, living this, you know, high litigation, going to school for this, living this, not just knowing, hey, this is how they taught it in school and this is how you mediate, going, okay, this is what your parenting plan says. Let me tell you how this is gonna play out in the real world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, let me tell you a story or two. And like you said, you know, yeah, I've done almost 3000 mediations. I've mediated 9,800 plus hours, like almost 10,000 hours. So, oh , I've got story upon story upon story. Like I've, I've run into this. Not much surprises me anymore. Uh , people are getting worse, not better. Uh , people are doing things going at what time did you think this was a good idea? Like, I've never heard anybody in the history of the world that got away with it. It improved their lives and it was a good idea. But, you know, people, we are creative animals. Um, sometimes we get stuck in our, in , in , in the , in the , in our own way as well. But with them, it, it , it needs to be, look, I'm not pushing you down this path, but also I'm not yanking you down this path. You know what, let's lock arms and let's walk down this path together and let's have a conversation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And when they understand. And, and for me going down this path as a mediator and as someone that's gone through it, I look at it more, less. I mean, if, if you want to put like mediator and you wanna put like, give me another word for what you do, Matthew... Tour Guide. Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell: 42:58

If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info iChat mediation do com. That's info at iChat ich a t mediation.com. And stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman: 43:15

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChat mediation virtual platform built by Cisco Communications, visit me online@imediating.com. Call me at (561) 262-9121 toll free at 8 7 7 8 2 2 14 79 or email me at m brickman iChat mediation.com.