5. How to Use Conflict to Your Advantage Through Negotiation

In the previous episode Matthew Brickman and Sydney Mitchell demonstrated through Quiz Question(s) how we view conflict and the way it affects our approach to it.

In this episode Matthew, a Harvard Law School Negotiation Master Class and Harvard Business School’s Negotiation Mastery program graduate, explains in detail how to use conflict to your advantage through negotiation.

Their advice will help you deal with:
• Divorce (contested/uncontested with/without children, property, assets, debts)
• Parental Rights
• Paternity Cases and Rights
• Parenting
• Child Custody/Time-sharing
• Alimony and Spousal Support
• Child Support and Arrears
• Document Assistance
• Visitation
• Prenuptial & Postnuptial Agreements
• Post-judgement Modifications
• Family Disputes
• Business & Contract Disputes
• Employment: Employer/Employee Disputes
• Real Estate: Landlord - Tenant Disputes
• Settling matters though In-person Mediation
• Settling matters though Online Virtual Mediation

If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479

SCHEDULE YOUR MEDIATION: https://ichatmediation.com/calendar/
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.

Transcript

Mediate This! Intro: 0:00

Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast, where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

Sydney Mitchell: 0:14

In the past episode, we discussed how we, as people view conflict, and as we continue to discuss how Matthew as a mediator empowers those people that he mediates for to find hope and peace in the midst of their fear and chaos. We are now going to talk about how to negotiate in order to get what you want. So Matthew, tell us a little bit about this whole concept of negotiation.

Matthew Brickman: 0:37

So Sydney, in mediation, my role is to help people embrace their conflict and use conflict to their advantage. And I noticed that I didn't say that they're gonna use it to take advantage, but rather to use the conflict, to help create what you desire while at the same time, helping the other party to get what they desire as well.

Sydney Mitchell: 1:00

So we use the word negotiation today, differentiate for us the difference between mediation and negotiation. You and I have had conversations outside of this, just differentiating the two and what they each really mean. Um, and so people that are new to mediation make the distinction.

Matthew Brickman: 1:19

Okay. So, so that's really good Sydney because, you know, last year I went to, both Harvard business school and got accepted to the Harvard law school master, negotiation program. And what was interesting was I was the only mediator in the program, because, as a mediator really I'm helping the parties negotiate b ecause I don't have any, I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't have any vested interest in t he negotiation. So the difference between mediation negotiation is, is negotiation is between the two parties, a mediator comes in to empower the two parties as they negotiate. So what I do m y, my job, like we always keep talking about is to empower, e mpower, e mpower. So my job is to help the two parties negotiate. I don't actually negotiate. I actually mediate both parties and help them negotiate. So like, you know, when I went to these two executive education courses, it was very, it was, it was, it was a stretch for me because I am a mediator. You know, I don't sit in the hot seat per se and negotiate, as someone who has an interest in the conflict, I come in as a mediator and help the two parties. So does that help clear that up?

Sydney Mitchell: 2:35

Yeah, it does. It does. So you're mediating the negotiation that's happening between the two, um, you know, between the two parties. And like you said, you don't have an interest one way or the other. Um, that makes sense. That makes sense. I just remember when we had first started talking about negotiation, I was like, well, Matthew, isn't that what you're doing anyway. And that, that helps you're mediating the negotiation between the two parties. Okay. And so you talked about, you know, through this negotiation process, you're trying to find something, uh, or a solution that gets what you want as well as gets the other person, what they want. How is that possible? What does that even really mean?

Matthew Brickman: 3:14

Okay. So in order to explain it, the easiest way to explain it is you and I are going to play a game. You know, we can, we keep playing these games each week. And I know, I know you don't like being on the hot seat, but it's a lot of fun to play the game. And the game is, is the easiest way to actually give an explanation. So we're gonna play a game and then I'm going to tell you a story. So then you can see how you actually apply the concepts that we're going to play in the game. And that'll just be the easiest way to explain to everybody how to actually negotiate.

Sydney Mitchell: 3:44

Okay. All right. I got my game face on. Let's go. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman: 3:46

Okay. So before we play the game, I want to explain something so many people as they come to the negotiation table, as they come to mediation to negotiate any type of an issue, usually people come in with fear and they only see what they can take. So do you remember the game hungry, hungry hippo? Yes. I love that game. Yeah. It's a fun game. So for those of you that don't know what the game is, there are four hippos and then a whole bunch of marbles and you have to hit the button as fast as you can. So your HIPAA will extend its mouth and grab as many marbles as possible. So many people come to mediation or to any other type of negotiation with the same mindset, resources are scarce. Sometimes time is of the essence or limited. And so people come in with blinders only looking to grab as much as they humanly possibly can. What people fail to realize though is when they come in with a mentality of only to take, they may miss things that actually create value and they miss it because they come in only claiming value. So by creating value, you're able to create options to negotiate. So everyone can get something and walk away with an agreement then that they can live with.

Sydney Mitchell: 5:10

This is fascinating. And I think it actually ties into one of our previous conversations, how you view conflict. This is almost this kind of, almost plays off of that. You know, if we're going to conflict, um, you know, with the intent to find a solution to that only benefits ourselves, um, or both parties. I think this, I, I just, I think that's a really great illustration. How does this play out in real life though? Like I just, I imagine two parties going into mediation, everyone's disagreeing. Um, I just, and we've mentioned before, I got to shadow you on time and it's like, how do you, how do you find a solution that both people are okay with? You know, some of our listeners might be considering mediation or they might be in the midst of their own conflict. And there just doesn't seem to be a way to find a mutual agreement. Um, what does that end up looking like in the real world?

Matthew Brickman: 5:59

Okay. So again, before we play the game, I'm going to give you a quick example and then we're going to play the game. Then I'm going to give you an application. So here's an example. I had a mediation where the husband was seeking alimony from the wife. He needed spousal support. Um, as a result of the divorce,

Sydney Mitchell: 6:18

I was gonna say, can you just define for us really clearly what alimony is?

Matthew Brickman: 6:21

Alimony is spousal support. Um, there's, you know, there's a bunch of statutory factors that you've got to get through, um, to even see if it's available. The statute actually outlines the different types of alimony, um, and you know, uh, for, for our listeners, you know, I'm not here to give you legal advice if you're, if you need to know how to apply that, see if your case actually is a candidate for alimony consult legal counsel. But again, in this particular case, the husband was seeking spousal support from the wife.

Sydney Mitchell: 6:52

So it's when to alimony is when one of the two partners is seeking financial support from the other post divorce. Correct. Okay. Okay, cool.

Matthew Brickman: 7:02

Okay. So the wife made in this particular example, the wife actually made considerable more money than the husband, and she did not want to pay her soon to be. Ex-husband what he wanted an alimony. So we discussed why he wanted it. You know, I had a private conversation and said, okay, so why are you wanting it? Like you did, not just what you want, but why, and found out that he wanted it because once he was going to get divorced, legally, she cannot carry him on her medical insurance. And he had some upcoming medical procedures and he also, um, was quite sick and had a lot of medicine. It was very expensive. And we even talked about the option of him staying on her medical insurance, through Cobra, after the divorce. But even that Cobra was going to be very, very costly. And so he wanted that spousal support. Um, and of course she did not want to pay him spousal support at all. You know, she was trying to keep as much money as she could. He wanted and needed her money. And in the end we created value and both parties were able to come to an agreement that they could live with after negotiating.

Sydney Mitchell: 8:21

What was the agreement that you guys ended up landing on?

Matthew Brickman: 8:25

Okay. So what again, focusing on, um, focusing on why he wanted it, not just what he wanted, but why, what we came up with was this, knowing that as soon as they got divorced, that she legally cannot carry him on the insurance. They decided that they would create this agreement. They would sign their agreement. So they had a legal binding contract, but they decided not file it, um, and have it finalized. So they would file it with the court, but not have it finalized. So they would have it as a habit, as a legal binding contract submitted to the court, just not have the judge sign it. So they would be officially divorced and they didn't. And they decided that they would do this for one year. So they would not have it finalized for one year. And this way, instead of the wife paying the husband money and the husband then having to get his own insurance and then pay for his own medicine, wife was going to spend no more than she's already been spending for medical insurance. And then the husband doesn't need the money from the wife in order to get his own medical insurance. And so since neither party, you know, I asked him, I said, are either of you looking to get remarried? And both of them looked at me and goes, absolutely not. We're not looking. Um, so since neither of them were in a rush to get remarried, they were able to create value. And that was created by allowing the husband to stay on the medical insurance. The wife then didn't have to pay the alimony of both of them walked away winners. Now, of course, if they had both walked in, just claiming value, the husband would have gotten some money. The wife would have had to pay some money, but it still wouldn't have been enough for the husband. He would have still lost. The wife would have been upset and keep in mind, these two still had minor children. They were going to have to still co-parent. And by creating this, this financial friction could have impeded on their ability to co-parent. And you know, you and I have talked before about, you know, trying to create agreements where the parties can co-parent peacefully. And this was a way where monetarily, financially, we were able to create peace, which created an environment set that tone that we talked about prior, right? He's fully co-parent and nobody really walks away a loser.

Sydney Mitchell: 10:49

Right? And this is, this is such a great example. We talked about in one of our earlier episodes, you know, about the fact that your job is to help both parties find, you know, creative solutions, you know, the laws and you know, what can, and can't be done. You're helping parties find solutions that they probably wouldn't have thought of on their own. You know, if, if I'm not mistaken and, um, this is just such a great example of that. So how can we take these principles of negotiation? You know, some of our listeners may not be in the midst of, you know, of conflict like this, or be considering mediation. How can we apply these PR you know, the hungry, hungry hippo principle to everyday life as we approach different kinds of conflict.

Matthew Brickman: 11:36

Well, okay. So, so I think, I think the easiest way to do that, Sydney is, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it through another little exercise called the lemon. Okay. So, so let's say that you and I are married and now we're getting divorced and there's a lemon, and we're now arguing over the limit. We only have one lemon, but we're arguing over it. And you're like, Matthew, I want the lemon. I'm like, no, Sydney, I want the limit. And you're like, well, Matthew, I'm the one that bought the tree. And I'm like, yeah, well, you planted it in my backyard that I mow every week. Well, yeah. But you know, I'm the one that put the down payment on the house. So it has a yard. Well, but yeah, but I'm the one that found the real estate agent. I mean, we could go back and forth about trying to figure out, okay, where did this lemon come from? We'll find, you know, going through the different levels. Like we had talked about, you know, the steps of negotiate you and I can't figure it out. We go to mediator, can't figure it out. We get an attorney. We can't figure out spine. We get in front of a judge. We walk in front of a judge. Judge goes, okay, we've Matthew and Sydney. There's two of you. We got one lemon. You know what? We're just going to King Solomon, this thing, we're going to cut it in half each, get half, get out of my courtroom. So you and I, on the way out to the parking lot, look at each other. And I'm like, Hey, Sydney, what'd you want that lemon for? And you're like, well, I wanted the pulp because I was going to make lemonade. Would you want it for? I said, well, I wanted the Ryan. I was gonna use the zest for a pie. Well, good. Golly. If we had talked about why we wanted the lemon, not what we wanted, which is that hungry, hungry, hippo going, I just need, I need, I need, I need, I need, if we had actually talked about why we wanted that lemon, well, we would have been able to create value. We would have both walked out with a hundred percent of what we wanted instead of going to court and walking out with half of what we wanted. And so that's, that's a great story that I use a lot of times in mediation, just like the game we're about to play, where I can really help people. Like, like we could be positioned, we call it positioning. When you just dig your heels and go, I want that limit. I found that limit. I need that limit. That limit is mine. And I'm like, no, it's not adds mine. And I found it well, now we're positioned. Well, how do you move somebody off of a position? Because it is a belief system. That's the other thing is it's a belief system. And so in mediation, I'm not there to convince you to believe anything else. I'm there to help you explore why you're looking for what you're looking. So you can still hold onto your belief system, but change your behavior. And once you and I talk about why we want that lemon, now we can create value instead of playing hungry, hungry, hippo, walking in and just demanding. I want the lemon because look, if, if you got the lemon, I would lose, well, you know what? Our ability to co-parent is now diminished, right? If I got the limit and you lost the ability to co-parent is diminished. But if we talk about why we want it, if we're able to then help each other, meet that need, like, I would be willing to give you the pulp and my half in exchange for getting the ride. Now you wouldn't need the Rhine. You're making lemonade. So what do you care? You're giving up something that you don't even care about, right?

Sydney Mitchell: 14:52

This is, this is like the beauty in negotiation, I think is what we're starting to see here.

Matthew Brickman: 14:57

This is why mediation works is because when you have a trained professional that is looking outside of the box, that has no vested interest in the negotiation. So they have that, that clarity to look from the outside in, and then look at, and I, you know, look at all the options. Yeah. You can really open up and expand the pie. Like you could take, like, you know, again, going to the lemon, you and I are walking in, fighting about the lemon. There's only there's, you know, there's only so much you can do with it. But if we start exploring the options, we can start creating value.

Sydney Mitchell: 15:38

That's really, really good. Really, really good stuff. Okay. I want to get to your game. I've been here since you started.

Matthew Brickman: 15:44

So, so here's the game. Let's, let's go with the game. I love games, so, okay. So, okay. So here's the game. This is called bus rider. Bus driver. Okay. So I use this in my own life and I use, and I've, and I've used this exercise in mediation with the parties as well. Sometimes I tell them, Hey, we're going to play bus ride or bus driver. Sometimes I'm doing it. And they don't even realize that they're playing bus ride or bus driver. Okay. But I use this and this is a, this is a great way to help people learn how to actually negotiate and keep in mind. After we play the game, I'm going to give you a real life application example. So here we go, Sydney, you have to get to a job interview. If you get to the job interview on time, you're a shoe and you're going to get the job. Here's the problem you raced out of the house. You ran down the street to the bus stop. You've arrived at the bus stop at the very last moment, just to jump onto the bus. It is the last bus that's going to get you to this job interview on time, Sydney, you have to ride the bus. So you get on and you realize that you have no purse. You have no wallet, no Fanny pack, no ID, no credit cards, no money, no nothing to pay the bus fare. You have to convince me as the bus driver to let you ride. Okay. So Sydney, you're the rider on the bus driver. So, you know, what do you think either you would do? Or what do you think, you know, just humans in general would try to do in order to convince me to ride the bus

Sydney Mitchell: 17:27

Into to myself as you share the story? Because I could show, I could totally see myself in this situation. Okay. Uh, okay. All right. It's like another bus I got. Um, is it, it matter if you're like a male or female, you're a man and I couldn't like flirt with you beyond the bus.

Matthew Brickman: 17:43

Well, I mean, flirting goes both ways, but, but yeah. I mean, yeah, you could try sweet talk and they are,

Sydney Mitchell: 17:50

Um, I could, I just, I'm picturing like all these movie scenes where people are in like a dire situation and they're making up all these crazy lies and stories about what happens to them that day. Um, so maybe like lying and, um, like trying to gain sympathy for

Matthew Brickman: 18:10

Right. Yeah. Heartstrings.

Sydney Mitchell: 18:13

Um, do I have running shoes? Can I run?

Matthew Brickman: 18:17

Okay. You're not going to run away. You're not going to get there in time.

Sydney Mitchell: 18:20

Or do you, you talk about making creative solutions. I'm trying to get creative here.

Matthew Brickman: 18:24

Well, the creative in order to ride the bus, like, what else do you think people would try to do to ride the bus? Okay.

Sydney Mitchell: 18:30

Okay. So if I have to pay, if I have to pay to ride the bus yeah. You have to play. Maybe I could like offer the person the money later or tomorrow, or, um, or if there's something else like cut off for them, um,

Matthew Brickman: 18:46

We like barter with them.

Sydney Mitchell: 18:49

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman: 18:51

I'll give you my earrings or I'll give you my watch

Sydney Mitchell: 18:55

Cute that day with just hopefully on the way to my job interview. I got all that fancy stuff on. So, so yeah. Um, Hmm. I think that's all I got, but if I come up with more ideas, I'll shoot them in.

Matthew Brickman: 19:07

Yeah. Okay. So, you know, you know, sometimes, sometimes in a negotiation. Okay. So again, you want to ride the bus, you may try to use religion. Like, you know, some people are like, what would Jesus do? You know?

Sydney Mitchell: 19:20

I got my WWJD bracelet.

Matthew Brickman: 19:22

Right? Exactly, exactly. Um, you know, sometimes people just get frustrated and they, and look, you may threaten me and be like, you know what, buddy, let me ride this boss. You know? Um, like you said, you know, you may try to offer me the money or, you know, what you made, you made, you may try to solicit others on the bus to chip in. Right? I mean, there's lots of creative ways in order to try to ride this bus. But here's, here's the approach though that most people take, most people use manipulation to get what they want from others. I mean, that would be, I mean, everything that I just said, basically everything. I mean, you know, trying to use your religion, sweet talk in may. I mean, it's all manipulation and sometimes it's even threats. And sometimes, like I said, people will use religion. They'll pull it heartstrings, still manipulation sometimes though their actions and motives when negotiating are conscious. And sometimes they're even subconscious. You know, many people are so focused on what they want or how to get it, that they don't even realize what the other person may be feeling or thinking like, you know, you want to ride this bus so bad. You may not even be looking at it from my point of view, as a bus driver who has a job, who's trying to, you know, put food on the table for his family. You know, you don't even realize that what you're trying to get, what you want may not only hurt the other person, but could even cause harm to people that aren't even involved.

Sydney Mitchell: 20:56

Sure. Well, I think this is a PR Dan, a primary principle in this whole conflict resolution conversation, you know, it takes us putting ourselves in the shoes of the other, other person in order to find an agreement that, that works, you know, like you said, so you don't hurt the other person.

Matthew Brickman: 21:11

Right. So, so, you know, if you wanted to, you know, some sometimes you're like, well, good, golly. Like who's going to get hurt. I just want to ride the bus. Right. Well, you know, the bus driver, him, him and, and of his, of, of his, you know, just him himself, the bus driver could lose his job. Right. Which then causes stress on his family that could lead to divorce. You know, now maybe it's not that extreme. Maybe it doesn't get divorced, but the loss of a job could cause the bus driver stress that then can affect his own health cause financial issues with him not being able to provide for his own family. What about all the other people on the bus and how it could affect their lives and their friends, family, kids, coworkers, depending on where that bus may be taking them on this particular day. So trying to manipulate what you want in negotiations, even when, what you were asking for is not bad and actually could do good. Not only could cause you to not get what you want, but it can in fact hurt those around you.

Sydney Mitchell: 22:17

And this is what it looks like when you go into a situation with your blinders on, you know, again, the hungry, hungry hippo analogy, and you're only focused on what you want. You don't think about what the other person might have in mind or how they want to use the lemon, you know, per se. Um, is there an answer to the story?

Matthew Brickman: 22:35

Yes. There is an answer you would ask the bus driver. What do you want in order for you to feel comfortable with allowing me to ride your bus? You know, it's changing, you know, it's flipping the script, it's changing the point of view instead of I need, I need, I need, you're actually going to say, well, what do you need in order to allow me to ride the bus, you basically get out of your own way to try to get what you are looking for. And so you could offer me all the scenarios in the world, Hey, I'll give you this. I'll give you that. I'll pay you tomorrow. You know, I'll give you my necklace. I'll give you my watch. Like you could offer me everything and never actually get a yes, you'll get no, no, right. And guess what, that's going to frustrate me. And that's going to frustrate you, which remember, you know, when we talked about the four DS that underlying content, we're going to get to that one. And what was, what was the last, the last one done for number, you know, the field

Sydney Mitchell: 23:30

I wrote everybody. That's not a real

Matthew Brickman: 23:32

Exactly. And so, you know what, I'll be like, miss you need to get off the bus so we can move on. You don't have the money and you don't want, you know, that doesn't help you. Right. Right. Right. And so, and so, you know, you know, you could offer all the scenarios on the, in the world and not get a yes from me because you didn't give me what I actually wanted or even give me the opportunity to decide on my own, not feeling like I'm being told or manipulated what I may be comfortable with in order to give you what you want. You know, and I do this every single day in mediation with the parties. And, um, and most of the time they don't even have an idea that they're even playing bus ride or bus driver. So, you know, if I, um, if I told you, you know, um, the truth in order for you to get what you're wanting and in order for you to feel comfortable with allowing me to ride the bus well, then, you know, once you've now given me the opportunity to give you what you want. Right. So go ahead. So in a real world application, you want to know how to, how to apply this in real world.

Sydney Mitchell: 24:37

I just was going to say like, I, well just know, I love that you have these in each of our podcasts, you're always telling some kind of story or giving some kind of scenario, where do you get all of these? Because they're really, really good,

Matthew Brickman: 24:49

You know, years and years and years of working, training, reading, listening, you know, just experience, you know, they're really, really fascinating. So yeah. So real world scenario. Um, my best friend was getting married in San Diego. And, um, I had custody of my kids. My ex wife was in town. Um, you know, she lived out of state and she was in town for about a month or so hanging out with her mom. And she had been asking constantly, Hey, can I see the kids? Can I have more time? Can I have additional time? I'm like, no, look, we have a parenting plan. Do you get what you got? Um, but then I get a call from my best friend who was getting married and said, Hey, Matthew, you know, I want you to come out to San Diego for my wedding. And I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, like I've got my kids. Like, how am I going to do this? I guess I can fly in for a special guest appearance. And so, um, so I'm like, okay, well the wedding is on Saturday. So I guess I can fly out Friday night. Be there Saturday, come back Sunday. Now Sydney, have you ever flown? I'm sure. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So Friday to Sunday, tickets are ridiculously expensive, so I'm going, Oh my gosh, it's going to be expensive wedding. So, so I, you know, now if I had called my ex up and said, Hey, I need you to do me a favor. I need you to take the kids so I can go to this wedding. She would have been like, well then fine. I want to have reduction of child support, or I want you to do this. And you know, you know, then, then, then it's like, you know what, forget it. And guess what? Now I don't get to go to the wedding, but instead I did bus rider, bus driver with her. So I called her up and I said, uh, I said, Hey, I know that you've wanted some extra time with the kids. Do you want some extra time? And she said, what do you want for it? I said, nothing at all. Do you want the time or not? There's gotta be a catch, no catch. Do you want it or not? She had been asking for it. So now I'm like, okay, I'm going to give her what she wants so that I can get what want right.

Sydney Mitchell: 26:44

Totally spinning in a different way that you present the student.

Matthew Brickman: 26:49

It's, you know what, Sydney, it's non selfish. I am getting out of the way. Instead of me going, I need, I need, I need, I'm thinking of her in order to give me what I'm looking for. So I said to her, I said, look, do you want the time or not? She's like, well, so what I pick them up after school on Friday, I'm like, yeah, she goes and take them back to school Monday. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think I knew I might be able to stay a little bit longer. And she says, well, can I have an extra day? Can I get them on Thursday instead? And I'm thinking to myself, wow. I can get an extra day in San Diego. And it's much cheaper to fly on Thursday then Friday. I'm like, yeah, I guess I can do that for you. And she's like, well, could I, could I keep them until Tuesday instead of Monday? And I'm going, Oh my gosh, the tickets are so much cheaper on Thursday to Monday. I'm like, well, this one time. Yeah, I'll do it this one time. Right? Well, guess what I gave her, what she had been looking for and asking for, which was more time with the kids in turn. I got to go to San Diego for the wedding. It, I didn't have to give her anything, but, you know, and I also gained, like I created value. Like I wasn't losing on these airline tickets. I was creating, I got them cheaper and I got to stay longer. So it wasn't this rush, you know, from Florida to California back in like two days, you know, I got a little me time, you know, uh, by, by plane bus rider, bus driver. And so, you know, you know, again, giving to somebody else what they're looking for may in exchange, give you what you're looking for. Now. I will tell you this Sydney from experience in mediation on a rare occasion, it's happened two times in 13 years, but I have done bus rider, bus driver, and one party simply will not allow the other party to ride the bus. I mean, I even say to him, so is there anything, anything on God's green earth that they can give you in order to get a yes. And they look right at me and say no. And I'm like, are you sure that they can't like, there's nothing at all? No, there's zero. Like absolutely nothing. They're like, yeah. I mean, like basically your not welcome to ride my bus. Now, usually the two times I've had it. It's the same exact issue where, you know, one parent is wanting more time sharing than the other parent is willing to give them. And what parents need to realize, at least in Florida is it's not yours to give the children are entitled to the time sharing. But in these two mediations, the parties refused. One of the parties refused to acknowledge the statute and it was going to have to take a judge to come along and make that executive decision that, you know what, yes, you're riding the bus because that, that parent was not even willing to let them the bus. When he said, what do you want? You just name it? Let's see if I have it available for you. It was like, there's nothing at all.

Sydney Mitchell: 29:49

Well, I think that's, you know, granted, I don't know the entire situation there, but it's a definitely, you know, it's just a different attitude, you know, that you approach conflict with. And I think sometimes as you're helping families negotiate creative solutions, you know, to, to create an agreement, um, you know, it's easy to just be focused on what you want and not be open to what the other person might have in mind or might benefit them. So, um, Matthew, thank you for sharing some of these stories and principles that are going to help. I know me like that lemon story. I'm, I'm, I'm taking this, this stuff with me because they're such good principles about how to approach conflict in a way that can be mutually beneficial.

Matthew Brickman: 30:27

Occasionally Sydney, and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we will answer your questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell: 30:35

If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that's info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman: 30:52

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.