Do I Need Permission to Leave the State or Go Overseas With My Child?

Building upon the previous episode Matthew Brickman and Sydney Mitchell talk about permission to travel intrastate, interstate and out of country with children being raised in separate households. Matthew and Sydney discusses how the choices made for what essentially is the child's entire childhood are handled in a parenting plan. Discover how useful parenting plans are, how they eliminate all the messy legal terms like "custody", "visitation", "access" and streamline the process of raising children after separation or divorce.

If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479

Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.

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Matthew Brickman
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Mediator 20836CFA
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.

Transcript

Mediate This!: 0:00

Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast, where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

Sydney Mitchell: 0:15

I'm really looking forward to jumping in Matthew with you today. The second part of the transportation section of the agreement and the previous episode, we discussed transportation and exchange. Um, you know, when children are going from one house to another, throughout the week, based on their timesharing plan, a time-sharing agreement, and today we are going to be discussing, um, foreign in state, out of state travel. Uh, particularly when children are going on vacations or trips, what, what does all of that look like? And, and how can two parents come up with an agreement that they can both live with, uh, regarding their children traveling with the other party or with a third party? Um, so Matthew kick us off, introduce us to this section of the agreement.

Matthew Brickman: 0:57

Okay. So I like what you just said, because you're a hundred percent right? That this is like vacations and whatnot, because this has nothing to do with like your weekday weekend schedule. And you know, so in this section, this is traveling during your time. So it is your weekend. It's your long holiday weekend. It's your winter break? It's your Thanksgiving break, your spring break, your summer break. You know, this is not that you're imposing or taken away from the other parent. This is on your designated time. So this is notification only. This is not permission. This is not, you know, I tell people all the time, the days of permission are over, they ended when you filed for your paternity action or you got divorced, or you were getting divorced the days of asking, can I are over it's now, Hey, by the way, I'm doing it. And this is simply notification because both parents should always be made aware of the whereabouts of their children. You know, this is, uh, this is, this is about safety. This is not about prevention. This is not about, um, um, you know, control. This is purely about, um, just notification and safety. So what's interesting about this section. I, I, I tell people, I will find two things out about you in this section. And sometimes Sydney, I'll jump to this section first because I will learn a lot about a father and a mother or a husband and wife, just asking them these questions.

Sydney Mitchell: 2:31

You'll jump to this portion of the transportation section or this portion of the entire agreement or agreement. Oh, okay.

Matthew Brickman: 2:38

Higher agreement, which is interesting. We'll wait before we even get to shared parental and you get a timesharing, like, why would you jump here? I learned two of the most important things I need to know about these people, um, when creating everything. So you know what they are,

Sydney Mitchell: 2:53

Um, I'm actually really intrigued. We didn't get to talk about this before the episode. So what are they? I will learn first and foremost.

Matthew Brickman: 3:01

What is there a level of trust between the two of them? That's never a thing that impacts transportation that impacts the time sharing schedule, that impacts education, that impacts babysitters. So just asking them these questions, I'll find out what their levels of trust star.

Sydney Mitchell: 3:19

I'm not sure then that makes it a lot easier to navigate other parts of the agreement with that. Understood.

Matthew Brickman: 3:23

Sure. It does because, because I will, I will know. Okay. Do they trust each other or not? Number two? I will find out whether or not they are a planner or they fly by the seat of their parents.

Sydney Mitchell: 3:36

There's always one of each, well, I guess not always,

Matthew Brickman: 3:40

Usually you're right. Rarely do I get to planners or to, you know, impulse people. Right. Usually like my ex my ex on my gosh, it used to drive me crazy. Cause my ex would wake up on a Friday and be like, I'm going to Georgia tomorrow to see my dad. I'm like what? You're just going to get in the car and drive six hours and go to Georgia for the weekend. But they turn around and come back on what?

Sydney Mitchell: 4:02

Well, you, you're not in the days of asking permission anymore.

Matthew Brickman: 4:05

Right. But for me it was just hard for me to now that was her weekend. Fine. She's given me notice whatever. But for me I'm hardwired that usually I plan vacations, you know, at least six to 12 months in advance. So there is, I know there is no, like I'm just going to wake up and get in the car and drive six hours. Like no. Um, but you know what, that, that's our personality differences now. Um, and so, so in this first section, this first section is in-state travel. Some people want it. Some people don't because some people can look at it as it's micromanaged. No, we don't care. It's just around the state of Florida. We can do whatever we don't care. Some people are like, no, no, no, no. I want to know now it's not permission. It's simply notification. So it says either parent can travel, uh, in the state of Florida with the children, simply providing notification how many hours. What's interesting. This is not how many days, because you're not, you're not traveling out of the state of Florida. So this is just hours. But also this section is titled. If you look at it, what does it say? Foreign in state, out of state, overnight travel. This is not, we're taking a day trip to Disney. That is not what this is. This is,

Sydney Mitchell: 5:20

This is overnight.

Matthew Brickman: 5:22

So basically you're not going to be spending the night at your designated address under the under shared parental responsibility. You're not staying at your designated address. You have a different overnight place that you're staying. So it says here that you can do it so long as there's no travel restrictions recommended or imposed by state or federal government because you know, due to COVID, you know, every state is different. Maybe they have locked out on their state. They're not permitting it. Sometimes you can't come into another state. You know, everything's just crazy. Um, but it says, um, now this, this next couple of sentence, this is in every single section. So it doesn't matter if it's in state, out of state, out of country, there's an exception for out of country. It's all the same. The traveling parent shall provide to the other parent, a detailed itinerary defined as when you're leaving, where you're staying, when you're coming back locations, telephone numbers, hotel information, uh, where the parent and child can be reached as both must always be notified about the whereabouts of the minor child.

Sydney Mitchell: 6:21

And all this information is exchanged on whatever platform has been to read it back for the parents to communicate regarding the job.

Matthew Brickman: 6:28

Exactly. So go back to the ed, go, go back to the communication section, section five of, did they agree to use app clothes.com? Do they agree to use family wizard or talking parents or did they agree that they're just going to communicate, you know, telephone, text, email, um, all of the above, whatever platform, whatever written communication that they agreed on. That's where all of these itineraries and stuff are gone, but it's written itinerary. Okay. So how many hours Sydney? I have seen this as low as two hours and I've seen it as high as 48 hours. Um, and keep in mind that this is notification and this is the court order, unless the parties otherwise agree. So, you know, when my ex and I did this, we did not do an in-state. We had an out of state out of country, just a plain out of state, out of country. That was it. And I think, I think on ours, I think we did maybe five days or so, or seven days for how to out of state. But like I said, she was just like planned thing. Like I'm going tomorrow, but keep in mind, our, our parenting plan is a court order, but we can always modify it as long as we agree in writing. So there were times where she would text me and say, Hey, I know that our agreement says, you know, five days, but you know, do you mind now, now she's asking to give me less notification. She doesn't have to give my permission to go, but if we're going to change the agreement, yes, we need to agree. And I, and so she like, you know, it's 24 hours notice instead of five days, do you care? And I'm like, it's your weekend? I don't care. Now if I said, no, I want my five days, well, we do have a court order. So this also encourages everybody to play nice because you know what if I say no to her, and then something comes up and I want to go, she can say no right back. And look, it's not my time. Anyway. It's not like I'm losing anything. So this really has to do with your level of trust and control of the other person. Right? I mean, so do you do, are you starting to see how I learn those two things for this section?

Sydney Mitchell: 8:38

I totally get it. I mean, I, yeah, there's so much to this. I feel like this, the in-state out-of-state travel encompasses all of the, all of the elements and pieces kind of that you're working on throughout the entire agreement in one.

Matthew Brickman: 8:52

So for example, I've had an instate, like one party says, you know what? Six hours is fine. And another party says seven days. Okay. They do not have a level of trust at all in any way, shape or form. Now, you know exactly what I'm dealing with.

Sydney Mitchell: 9:07

Can they distinguish if they agree upon it? Like, for example, you said some parents are planners and some kind of don't mind, could they agree upon a different number, like differing numbers of hours, um, like to notify the other party. So right now the agreement says, and simply for provide notification blank hours prior to travel. So it's the same number of hours for both parties. Could two parties pick different numbers of hours to notify the other if they both agreed upon it. Is that an option for people or does that not work?

Matthew Brickman: 9:43

You can tell. I mean, you're able to see me laugh and smile with no response Sydney. I have never, ever had anybody ever asked me that

Sydney Mitchell: 9:53

People, people have preferences. And I just, I know there's, I guess your parties have as much flexibility as they want

Matthew Brickman: 10:02

And Simon shock, because nobody has gotten as creative as you have just gotten. I mean, 2,400 mediations, 14 years of this, and nobody's ever asked me that I don't even have a reason. I don't even know how to have a response. I mean, very creative, kudos to you, Sydney, but nobody's ever asked me that. Um, I mean, so, so the answer is yes, they could. So, so, so are you saying basically, either parent can travel around the state of Florida with the minor children, the father agrees to give the mother at least seven days, the mother agrees to give the father at least two days, right?

Sydney Mitchell: 10:34

Yeah. Like let's say I don't, you know, my kids, I don't really care. Just let me know an hour before. And the other one goes, well, I need to know two weeks before. Like, could they agree on that?

Matthew Brickman: 10:42

Absolutely. They could, uh, generally though, and keep in mind, I mean, this entire parenting plan is not for or against the mother or the father. You know, if you go to the statute and it says that when creating the parenting plan, there's no preference for, or against a mother or father when establishing or modifying the plan then starts to create like, well, it's good for you. And not for me, they could do that. So it's easier to get them to just compromise on a number. So sometimes Sydney, it's, it's a lot like a tennis game, right. Where you're just looking back on one side, then the other side. So one parties may say, I want 14 days. Owen says I went 24 hours. Okay. I'm willing to do seven days. All right. I'm willing to do two days. Okay. I'm willing to do six days, right. I'm willing to do four days. Okay. Five days. Okay, fine. We'll agree to five. You know, it's generally how that goes, because what I'm doing is the mediators ongoing going, look, this is not impeding on your time sharing. This is on their timeshare, your not losing anything. Do you really care or is it about control or is it about trust? And that's where I then can have those conversations and find out what's going on behind the scenes. You know, you and I have talked about on the, on, on previous episodes about the why behind the what, not just what it is, but why what's driving your, what, you know, why is it? And then I find out, Oh, so and so cheated. Okay. So this is control and this is punishment. Okay. Well, that's why there's a lack of trust. And that's why sometimes I'll jump all the way to this because I find out so much about people

Sydney Mitchell: 12:20

Asking me about, I totally get why now asking about

Matthew Brickman: 12:22

Travel. Like, what are you going to find out about me about ask about travel, almost everything I need to know. That's going to help me with the rest of the parenting plan. So, so the next section is out of state. So like I said, some people do in state. Some people say, Hey, look, whatever you do in state, I don't care. I do care about out of state.

Sydney Mitchell: 12:39

Okay. Wait, wait, sorry. Quick question. I forgot to ask you. So the, what we just went through, in-state travel that is only applicable. If they're staying overnight at an alternate address, if it's just for the day, they're going to Disney for the day, they're doing whatever there's no notification required. Correct. Okay. Just confirming. All right. Let's go.

Matthew Brickman: 12:57

All of this is overnight. It's titled for an in-state out-of-state overnight travel. Okay. Yep. Okay. So the next one is out of state. Now we're going out of state, but within the continental United States. Okay. So either parent can travel out of state with the children during his or her time sharing it's during your time during it's your vacation, it's your weekend. You're not taking any time away from the other person. And again, same rule. So long as there's no travel restrictions recommended or imposed by state or federal government. And whoever's traveling with the children to give the other parent these how many days written notice before traveling out of state, unless there's an emergency. Okay. Unless there's an emergency and all the same rules still apply. You got to give a detailed itinerary location, telephone numbers, flight numbers, airline time of departure, return hotel information. What I always tell people, Sydney is whenever you book your travel, you know, you know how it says, okay, do you want us to email you your itinerary or whatnot? When you just, just put the other parent's email in there, just even hurry. So they have it and just call it a day. Like here you got it. Right. Um, when arriving a set destination, the parent with the children will notify the other parent that they arrived safely to the destination upon check-in. Well, I would want that, like, if you were taking the kids, I would want notification that you arrived safely. Like you would want notification that I arrived safely. Right. So, you know, again, it's just, it's, it's courtesy, it's notification only. And same thing. How many days written notice, um, generally with this and, and with, with this, you know, people always look at me and go, well, what's normal. And I'm like, whatever you want. But generally it's three days. It's five days. It's seven days. It's 14 days. It's 30 days. So really it's, it's, you know, we, we look at it as like, basically it's a long weekend, it's three days. So that, that, that's where we get the idea of three, five days is a work week. Seven is a calendar week. 14 days is two weeks, which is generally when you get discounts on airfare is with a two week cutoff and 30 days is a month in advance. So when we say three, five, seven, 14 or 30, that's the thought process behind what, what just generally, most people pick, um, I have done this Sydney where it's like, you know what, I don't care, give me 24 hours. Notice the parties get to decide whatever they want to that. Right.

Sydney Mitchell: 15:22

Right. I just had a, um, uh, I just saw a comment, I guess. I mean, so when two parties, they come to mediation, they're, you know, creating this agreement. I think there's this stigma that, okay, you're not really going to have to, you know, once you make, once we make the agreement it's done, we don't have to communicate. We're completely separate. I mean, obviously you're separated, but we're not really going to have to talk like, especially with all these travel notifications and things, you know, as we talk through them, as we get deeper and deeper into the agreement, I'm starting to realize how much, you know, two parents that are co-parenting really are having to communicate. Obviously, even though they're completely separated, um, on behalf of the child. And so my gosh, it is just so important, um, you know, to be willing, to be understanding and have civil communication with the other party that you're co-parenting with, because now as we're discussing these travel notifications, um, as you can see, you are still going to likely have to be communicating semi-regularly, especially when it comes to holidays and things like that.

Matthew Brickman: 16:26

And, and that's a very valid point because yeah, I mean, usually the F you know, the rise and fall of the marriage or the, you know, the, you know, if someone files a paternity action is because of lack of communication or poor communication, and they think fine, I'm going to get, take care of this. I'm never going to have to speak or talk to them again. No, you're going to be talking with them more than you did when you were together. Just sort of making up your own things within your own household. And that's why giving the parties, the tools like app close family wizard, talking parents that helps, you know, um, you know, those three applications, which are communication portals that help parties with communication. If parties come into mediation, they have poor communication. They're, they're generally on those. And the courts are starting to order them for everybody period. They want everybody be because even if let's say two people are getting divorced and they do have good communication, we still recommend those applications because it helps them maintain good communication. Those apps help the parties organize their communication. So there's not a miscommunication, but you're absolutely right. I mean, just because you were like, fine, I'm getting divorced, or I got this paternity action, and I'm going to have to deal with them very, very little, no, you're going to be involved with them on a very regular basis. Um, I mean, even, and I'll tell you, you know, for myself, when my ex moved out of state, you would think, Oh, well, Matthew's got the kids 80% of the time, she's got 20% of the time. They don't have to communicate. Do you know how many documents I have to provide to her and me going back to, you know, going back to the section that we had talked about in the previous episode about communication, that whole litany of documents, that's a lot of communication that I'm having to do to keep per involved, because we had shared parental responsibility, even though I've got 80% time sharing, we've got shared parental, which means she's involved with everything. And since I have 80%, I got to keep her involved and keep her informed, but that's a lot of communicating. Yeah. And so, and so you're absolutely right. I mean, with all of these different sections, yes. The parties are going to have to communicate. It's not, well, you know, I'm just going to do my own thing and I don't have to deal with them anymore. Oh, no, you're going to be communicating. But as, as, as you and I have pointed out before in previous episodes, there's a reason why they call this a parenting plan, not a child plan because it's the parents that need the rules because generally they're okay. Acting like children. And so by, by putting all of these rules in there, this allows the parents then to know what is allowed, what is not allowed, what is expected of them, what they can do, what they can't do. And that helps create that peace in the midst of what could be a lot of chaos. Right? Right. Um, so with this section, again, it could be hours. It can be daily. It's completely up to the parents. Now the next section has a lot more to it because it's out of country. Okay. So it says that either parent can travel out of the country with the children during their time sharing so long as there's no travel restrictions recommended or imposed by state or federal government, the parent with the children will give at least how many days written those for traveling. And this is where then it gets very detailed Sydney. So the same things apply. You know, the flight numbers, airline time of departure, return, hotel information, all of that still applies. But now of course, if you're going out of country, you've got to start exchanging documents, right. Because you've got a lot of different documents required. So the parents will cooperate with one another and executing any documentation necessary for obtaining and or renewing passports for the children named in the parenting plan. So we've got passport language, the parties will equally divide the cost for obtaining and or renewing passports for the children. Now, sometimes Sydney, um, the parties, one like say, say, for example, dad makes a hundred thousand dollars a year. Mom makes$50,000 a year. And mom's like, why do I have to pay for half of them? Right. Well, why, why wouldn't we split this based on our income? Or, you know, he's makes more money. Why doesn't he just pay for it? Well, the reason why generally it is split equally is because both parties have access to them. So if both parties have assets, then, then, then they're doing that. Okay. So then of course for people get all caught up and Whoa, who's going to hold the passport when it's not in use, I'm going to keep the passport. I mean, people are always looking for that final frontier of feeling like I'm power grabbing. I have a little bit more than you do, and Sydney sad, but true. A company has even been created that will hold documents for parents who cannot be grown up enough to hold their own documents. So you can pay a company to hold the kids passports, to hold birth certificates and social security cards to hold different. I was like, Oh my gosh, you really have to spend the money. You're, you're, you're that much of a child grownup, like you're here, you're an adult child, right? But generally we put in here, when not in use, we level the playing field when not in use, the father will retain the passport and even hears and other retain the passport in odd years. But regardless of what year it is, each parent agrees to provide whatever documentation is necessary for our passport. So a passport, a notarized letter of authorization or any document necessary for the other parent take the children out of the country within 14 days of receiving send request. So depending on where the children are going, depends on what documentation is necessary. It might be a passport, but you know what? Some places require a notarized letter of authorization. So it all depends on where the parent is going, whatever documentation is necessary, the other parent agrees to give it. Okay. So this is, um, generally, so people like, well, generally, what is this? Now I've seen this where it's 24 hours. I've seen it where it's 24 hours. I've seen it where it's 90 days. And there's a lot of logistics with this. The average Sydney is 30, 45, 60 or 90 days,

Sydney Mitchell: 22:50

The amount of time that a parent needs to notify. Okay.

Matthew Brickman: 22:54

And here's the reason there's a lot of logistics. When you start looking at out of country, do you even have a passport what's how long is it going to take you to get the passport? What about, what about the other, um, documents that you might need and forget about the documents. If you're going out of the country, you're most likely planning this ahead because it's costly, right? But depending on where you're going, certain countries require, uh, shots and immunizations for their particular country. So for example, I remember many years ago, when my kids went on a mission trip to the Dominican Republic, the Dominican Republic required two different shots. Now my kids had their shots and immunizations for school, but these particular shots that the Dr required anyone coming in well, the kids had to get

Sydney Mitchell: 23:43

Right. Well, anybody with

Matthew Brickman: 23:46

Kids, and I'm sure even you, as a kid know that you just don't call up and go to the doctor tomorrow. Like you gotta get an appointment and we've gotten, we've got an opening in three months. We'll call you if we get a cancellation. Right. Well, guess what? That takes time. That's logistics. And one of the things Sydney that I learned with my kids when they did go to the Dr, was the two shots they needed. They can't have those in the same day because they have conflicting side effects. So that meant we needed. So that meant we needed two appointments. So there's logistics behind the timeline here. Right? The other thing is, let's say, for example, that, um, that I'm giving you notification, but you're like, Oh no, you are not taking my kids there. And I'll make, what are you talking about? And you're like, I'm not, you know, you're not taking them there. Right. Well, you might need enough time to get in front of a judge to see if a judge will override and step in. And if you don't have enough time, I'm going to be gone. And back before you're even going to get in front of a judge. So typically with that, well then that's like 45, 60 or 90 days you'll get in front of a judge because there is no emergency hearings. Very rarely do they grant emergency hearings in most jurisdictions. Right. So that's another logistic to, to, to, to play. And so I'll give you an example of when, when I ran into that, I had a dad who has taken his two kids on a mission trip. Um, and they were going with their church about 30 people. And the mother goes, Oh, no, you're not taking my babies. And he's like, they're teenagers. Like, they're okay. She was like, you're not taking my babies there. And he's like, whatever. And so she filed a motion with the court to restrict it and you're going, okay, what's the problem. Like these are teenagers. Dad's given her notification. It's, there's 30 of them. So it's not like he's going off on his own. It's a church group. And he gave her the itinerary. They're going to they're on the buses together. They're staying at like this compound type thing. She was like, no, no, no, no, no. So in their particular agreement, there was enough time to get in front of the judge. They go in front of the judge, present their facts. And the judge says no. And you're like, okay, so what happened? Why, well, why was he was taking them to Haiti after the earthquake? This was many, many years ago. Well, there was death disease, rubble, the potential danger, maybe not in the children's best interests. You know, the, you know, the judge and the statute talks about best centers. This was not trying to punish a restrict the father. This was about the protection of the children. And so, you know what the judge said serve, you want to go fine, but not the kids in that particular situation. So let's, let's go down to the remaining part of this paragraph because this talks about then those situations. So the first one is neither parent can bring the minor children to any country that is not a signatory on the hate convention. So going back to the beginning of the parenting plan, we had discussed that this parenting plan is about all of the parental kidnapping prevention act, the civil aspects of international child abduction enacted the Hey get 1980. Right? So what that is, Sydney is that is, um, a treaty that was created back in 1980, between a whole bunch of countries. They said our country will cooperate with your country in the event of parental kidnapping. And we will make sure that the children are returned back, uh, to, to your country. Okay. There were a number of countries that say, we're not signing that we're not joining that. Um, and so if they're not a signatory on the hate convention, you can't go there unless the parties otherwise agree. And, and I'll give you an example. I had, I think it was, I think Venezuela, maybe, I don't know, South American country are, or maybe it's Columbia and maybe, yeah. Not part of the Hague. Right. But both the mother and the father are from that country. That's their home country. So we actually made an exception that said not a signatory on the hate country, except for Columbia or Nicaragua, whichever one it was right. Because you can't say that they can't go back home. Like that's their home country. Okay, fine. So if they're not part of the Hey convention, you can't go. But also neither parent can bring the minor children to any country where there exists a travel advisory for the us state department and countries consider dangerous levels three and higher. So when we talk about levels three and higher, if you, um, what, you know, in my parenting plans, I actually have the website for the us state department. And so you can pull it up and it lists all of the travel advisories around the world. And they're color coded one, two, three, and four. So level one is exercise. Normal precaution level two is exercised, increased caution level three is you should reconsider travel and level four is, do not travel, right? So the parties can then go to this and Sydney, this is always changing, right? This has always changed just depending on what's going on in the world. So if we look at this and I'm going to scroll down here and you see where all, so many of them are level three right now, right? I mean, there's so much level. I mean, are you scrolling it? Let me see all of these level three level three, these are, have all been updated at different dates. Here's one for December 17th, 2020, here's an August six, 2020. And if you click on the particular country, it'll tell you why. And if you look at this, it says, write a top reconsider, travel due to, and in Croatia, due to COVID now 19. Great. And then it even says the CDC has issued a level four travel health for Croatia due to all right. So guess what? You're not going to Croatia knock out. Right. And so this is then where the parties can then come and look and see, is this a level three or higher, according to us state department. So we give them the tools, you know, and we've got the same exact, um, um, in, in the parenting plan. You know, if you look here, I've got the website to see if it's a Hague country or not to see if they're part of the Hague. Um, and so we give them the tools to then check and see, because look, countries, countries end up signing up on the Hague and countries, you know, depending on what's going on in the world, they're level three and higher reduced or whatnot. So that's how out of country works. But then we've got an out of country exception because we are here in South Florida. And like, why could I give you 14 days? Let let's, let's just say, hypothetically, you. And I said, okay, we want 14 days for out of state, but we went 90 days for out of country. Okay. But why would you be okay with me traveling from Florida all the way across the United States to Seattle with 14, but I can't go down to The Bahamas, that little Lake like that. Like I can't go a couple miles off the beach into international waters within night without, you know, so we do have a bomb is Caribbean exception. And in South Florida here we can get except parole. I got, I don't know about at the moment. It probably at the moment, cause they want to, they were, they want to fill it up. But prior to COVID, you know, cruises, right, man in Florida, we had great Groupons. You could do$150. They were just trying to fill up a cruise. You could do a last minute cruise and fill, you know, for$150 for a three-day cruise on behind, uh, down to The Bahamas. And so we do have a Havas Caribbean exception in generally we treat this the same as out of state. So say for example, you got seven days for out of state. Let's say you got 30 days around the country. Well, you'd have a Bahamas Caribbean for seven days. Or sometimes we just leave this out. Sometimes the partners are like, look out of countries, out of countries, out of country. We don't care. It's all the same. All right, fine. It all depends. You know, but my job is to give them options. Right? The last section Sydney, what does it say here? Mutual agreement. Only mutual. Yeah. Yeah. Now you and I have talked in other, in other episodes about the days of asking permission are over, right? This is notification only, except in this one piece. And here's why this is if the children have the opportunity to travel with anyone other than the biological mother and the biological father. So this is the child's traveling and mom and dad, aren't going, yeah. Mom and dad need to agree on, on, on who's taking the child. Right. That makes sense. But it's more than a hundred miles away from their respective residences as noted in the parenting plan. Now, sometimes people have said, well, we want a 200 mile radius. We want a 50 mile radius or whatnot. They get to pick like what that is. But generally it's a hundred. Um, um, unless, you know, unless they otherwise agreed. Um, and they have to agree on the adult. Who's taken the child so long as there's no travel restrictions recommended or imposed by state or federal government. So if it says that if the parties come to a mutual agreement, so what's going to happen, Sydney is they're going to be communicating on one of the communication platforms or email Taxware, they're going to be communicating in writing about, Hey, you know what aunt Jo is going to take, or aunt Joe, uncle Joe, uncle, Joe's going to take, you know, little Bobby, you know, with his cousins skiing. Right. Okay. Well you, you and I are probably going to be talking back and forth about all the logistics. Well, Joe wants to take them on spring break. It's my spring break. And you're going to be like, okay, well, where are they going? Where are they staying? How long are they there? Like, you're, we're going to talk about all the logistics. Right. And so then if you and I come to an agreement, if you're like, okay, Matthew, I'm okay with it. Okay. Then a detailed itinerary must be provided 30 days prior to travel. Here's the catch though. The itinerary does not match the discussions by both parties, travel, shut out. Okay. Place. And it's avoided. So remember the movie taken? Yeah. That was so familiar. Yeah. So, so in the movie taken, the daughter tells the dad that she's going to go and spend the time with her girlfriend and at her parents over in Paris and know their group is going to be traveling around Europe with you too. Well, guess what? The itinerary did not match the discussions by both parents. The mom tried to pull a fast one on the father and then try to make the dad seem like the bad guy. But guess what? If the itinerary doesn't match the discussions, then the trip is voided. There's no pulling a fast one. It's what we agreed on. Or that's it. And then all of the same information is exchanged flight numbers, airline time of departure, all of that stuff. But this is important. The adult who's traveling with the children will ensure that both parents have open communication with the children while they're gone. There'll be no restriction to communication while away, unless communication is not available. So like on a cruise ship or in a jungle and common sense shall be used by the parties. So let's say for example, that, that I say, Hey Sydney, you know, my uncle Joe wants to take our kids skiing or whatnot. And then you're like, okay, fine. But then every time you, you try to call the kids, uncle Joe keeps going, Oh, Sydney's calling decline, decline, decline. I'm not letting her well, guess what? I can be held accountable for that. So I gotta make sure uncle Joe, you're not going to block mom. You're going to allow mom. Now let's say that uncle Joe and the kids are in the mountains of Tennessee and there's no coverage. Well, then he's not blocking it. It's just not available. Right. And so that's the only common sense shall be used by the parties. Um, and the natural parents is responsible accountable for accident. Patients have third party custodians designated. So again, if uncle Joe was blocking you, well, then I can be held accountable. Um, but this is where this is where it's really good that if the kids have their own phones, that's great. Because then mom and dad have complete access to the kids while they're gone. There is no potential of uncle Joe getting in the way. Um, and so that is then how we deal with the, um, foreign in-state out-of-state Bahamas, Caribbean, or the kids, you know, traveling with somebody else. You know, as, as I said, before, going through this, I find out a lot about the people. I mean, as you can see, there's a lot of like, how, how, how much do you trust each other? Right. Right. How much do you trust each other? And once I find that out, Oh, it's then, then we can go through the rest of it. I, I understand we've got a level of trust or understand. We've got some hesitancy. So Sydney, um, how was it with you growing up? Did you know, did you guys do a lot of traveling and whatnot? Yeah,

Sydney Mitchell: 36:41

I, I traveled a ton. I always tell people a few of the only perks about living with two, two sets of parents and two families is that you get double the Christmas, birthdays and double the family vacations. And, but, you know, between traveling with both families, as well as going on missions trips, I went on, I think, 10 missions trips, total over the course of middle and high school. So I was traveling a lot, a lot of that was out of country. So as we're talking about this, my mind is like starting to connect all the dots about all the conversations that my parents had to have. Right. I'm agreeing on all these details. So yeah. Um, I would do family vacations. I mean, gosh, there was one year, I think I counted how many flights I went on that entire year and I think it was 20 or 21 flights. Yeah. It had like four or five family trips and emission stripper to the course of a year. And so yeah, these conversations were definitely take place between my parents. I had absolutely no clue. Um, but there, there wasn't really any tension necessarily, you know, if I expressed interest in going on a trip that was out of the country or out of state with another party, whether it be a church or a friend or whatever the case, um, you know, they were both pretty reasonable about, you know, they would say, you know, we need to think about it. And then now I'm learning that they secretly or

Matthew Brickman: 38:01

Yeah, behind the scenes negotiating.

Sydney Mitchell: 38:06

And so no, my parents were pretty cordial about all of it. And they were pretty flexible with sort of traveling with the other parent, um, you know, I'm from up North. So I go up North all the time and I did a lot of back country hiking, uh, with my dad and we would do that all the time. And so they were pretty flexible, which I'm really blessed. Um, but yeah, I'm starting to see all of the conversations that had to have taken place and all of the decisions that had to have been made. And I'm lucky enough that I didn't have to witness a lot of the conflict around, around travel. So, um, but of course, as we've seen, there are lots of conversations to be had. And one of the best things, as we've talked about that two parties can do, uh, to be prepared for this conversation is to be open-minded and, uh, just, you know, remaining willing to, to compromise, to negotiate, you know, two parties you're going to have to meet in the middle at some point or another. And this is one of those, as you said, topics that shows a lot of, you know, shows a lot about somebody can be a little bit challenging, I'm sure to navigate as you've seen with many families, um, but approaching the conversation and even potentially having some of these conversations before mediation to just alleviate conflict, trying to solve the problem on your own seeking mediation to tie up the loose ends, you know, is one of the best things that I've, I've heard you say that two parties can do to prepare for this conversation. And in the next few, we're going to be wrapping up the entire parenting plan and, uh, just really excited for you to do

Matthew Brickman: 39:33

Occasionally Sydney. And I will be releasing Q and a bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell: 39:41

If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info chat, mediation.com that's info@ichatichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shadow and have your questions answered here

Matthew Brickman: 39:57

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me either in person or using my I chat mediation virtual platform built by Cisco communications. Visit me online at[inaudible] dot com. Call me at(561) 262-9121 toll free at(877) 822-1479. Or email me@himworkmanatichatmediation.com.