Mediate This!
Mediate This!
Matthew Brickman Interviews Lawrence Joss of Parental Alienation Anonymous Inc. (PA-A.org)
Lawrence Joss is the founder of Parental Alienation Anonymous Inc (PA-A.org), a 501(c)3 nonprofit dedicated to fostering education, advocacy, and support for individuals grappling with the distressing impact of parental alienation, estrangement, erasure, and family disconnection.
Parental Alienation Anonymous
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
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LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/parental-alienation-awareness-support-group/
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Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.
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Matthew Brickman
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.
Matthew Brickman:Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution. welcome back to another episode of Mediate This. Today I am , uh, joined by Lawrence. Josh . He is the founder and director of Parental Alienation Anonymous. How are you, Lawrence?
Lawrence Joss:I'm doing great today, man. Thanks for taking the time out to , uh, have a conversation with me. I'm , I'm looking forward to seeing , uh, where it goes. Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:So I just have to say first I was, I was , uh, I was doing a little homework on you. You went to the University of Arizona. I see,
Lawrence Joss:Correct? I did.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. But , uh, both my parents went to University of Arizona.
Lawrence Joss:That is, that is very funny . That's an interesting area. Tucson's, definitely , uh, an interesting town,
Matthew Brickman:Tucson's where I was born,
Lawrence Joss:<laugh> . That's funny. Actually. Am Well, that's, that's wonderful.
Matthew Brickman:Yep . So now I left when I was one, so I don't have any memory of it. Um, but what's interesting is I've lived in Tucson, Texas, North Dakota, and Florida. And currently I've, I've spent most of my life in Florida, just not consecutive, but I've always told my family, I said, if I ever disappear, you'll find me in Scottsdale. Like my heart is in Arizona. I love the desert and the mountains. Like I love Florida, I like the ocean, but there's something about the desert and mountains that is so peaceful.
Lawrence Joss:Yes. No, it's a , it's a really tranquil space and it's interesting and it's, and it's evolving rapidly just like , uh, other parts of the country or , it's very different than when I went to school there 30 years ago. And , um, I presume when you were there last, but it's , uh, yeah, it is definitely beautiful being in the desert.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Yeah. So where, where are you currently?
Lawrence Joss:I'm out in , uh, Ojai, California.
Matthew Brickman:Okay.
Lawrence Joss:And , uh, I was born in South Africa and moved out to the States when I was 10. And I've always lived on the West coast. I'm , I'm a west coast kind of guy. I don't get why people pick , you know, cold humidity, anything like that. I like the moderate temperature. I'm like, okay, this is cool. Doesn't get too hot. Doesn't get too cold.
Matthew Brickman:So, born in South Africa. When did, when did you leave South a South Africa?
Lawrence Joss:You know what , in the 1980s as there was a decent amount of migration over here because the rand, which was the currency and is the currency in South Africa, was still very, very strong.
Matthew Brickman:Okay. You know ,
Lawrence Joss:Or a lot of the political stuff was happening on more mainstream. And then, you know, now it's like the valuation now is maybe an eighth or a 10th of what it was when we left. That's why there was such a big migration at that time.
Matthew Brickman:Got it. Got it. So my parents are in Nairobi, Africa. Yeah, they're in, they're in Kenya. Um, so they've been there, I think 11 years now.
Lawrence Joss:Huh . That's fascinating. And why, why Kenya ?
Matthew Brickman:Uh, that's where they, that's where they went. So , uh, they opened up an orphanage , uh, and started a church. And so, and , uh, my dad does , uh, uh, what does he , he does so much stuff. Uh, he's probably one of the smartest people I know. Uh , but , um, he's doing , uh, uh, training and , uh, different things over there , uh, with individuals and companies. And so yeah, they've been over there , uh, um, with their , uh, with their orphanage for I think 11 years now. I think it's been 11 years now.
Lawrence Joss:Wow. That , that is some awesome, awesome work. How cool is that?
Matthew Brickman:Yeah . So , um, so you've got a couple of other, so, well actually, I wanna get back to the , uh, to, to your parental alienation anonymous. 'cause that's, that's the main thing you're doing now , right?
Lawrence Joss:You know that It's an interesting question, <laugh> , and Yes, it's the main thing. And we've had some organizational issues. 'cause strategically it wasn't great 'cause there was so many different things going on. So we're actually in the process of changing the organizational name, which will be parental alienation advocates. Okay.
Matthew Brickman:And
Lawrence Joss:Parental Parental alienation. Anonymous is one of the doors, and it's a 12 step meeting to support families and parents, grandparents that are struggling with alienation, estrangement, erasure, stuff like that. And it's a incredibly robust, beautiful community, but it's just one of the doors that we have open to bring people into the community.
Matthew Brickman:And, and so , okay. So, so that, that was leading me to some of my other things. So I know that you, you know , um, I think, and I guess it's probably under the umbrella, like you said, there's the support group, and then I know that then you have like a family Hope project. You've got training , um, you've got, you even have a pod , um, you have , you have a podcast, right. Family Disappeared podcast. And so all of those, I guess, are like what you're talking about, the doors under then as , as you're restructuring to advocate, those are all different doors. Is that right?
Lawrence Joss:A a hundred percent. And , and what the , the overall mission of the , the organization is to is reach as many families and people as possible and , and support people where they are. And some people might want to come in a 12 step door and have a support group, and other people might wanna just hang out and listen to the podcast and hear experiences of different parents and grandparents and children and professionals. And some people might want do something like the family , um, hope Project, which is a , a virtual online art gallery, advocacy and education platform. And we take art from people from all over the world, whether it's dance, music, paintings, sculpture, they label it anonymously, and they put a little description in, and it's a , it's a really, really visceral experience for people to explain what they're going through, whether it's in the court system, whether it's in divorce, whether it's in mediation, whether whatever it is. It's just a place people get to say something through any form of expression that they want. And we're finding it as it's a really great door for people to come in that don't wanna join anything else. Sure . They just wanna express themselves, you know.
Matthew Brickman:Well, and then you also have a Facebook group, right?
Lawrence Joss:We have a Facebook group for, for the Family Hope Project. Family Disappeared. And, and the 12 Step, they're all separate Facebook groups. Okay . And there's a lot of people that choose to enter a bunch of the doors. And then we also have what we call the foundational trainings, which I think are the most important. Where we're teaching, you know, folks communication, like nonviolent communication, we get into meditation, forgiveness, equanimity , um, sympathetic joy, which is great, which is joy in someone else's joy. There's family systems training, there's , uh, on living and dying, which is, which is a really awesome thing just to be a memorial for ourselves as parents or grandparents that are disconnected. So our kid , our kids, our grandkids can know who we are. And , uh, so many wonderful things that, that we're doing. And, and , and it's moving rapidly. Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:So, so I noticed , um, uh, I don't remember where I found it. Um, but, you know, I, I was, I was reading, you know, this stuff and was like, it's an interesting path because, you know, it's interesting. Usually, usually nobody wakes up and says, yeah, you know what I like, I didn't wake up one day and be like, I'm gonna be a mediator. I didn't, I wasn't a little kid that said one day I want to , I wanna sit in the middle of two people in the middle of a divorce. That's what I want to do with my life. Like, I can't wait to be stuck in the friction of life. And I would imagine you probably didn't wait , you know, as a kid you weren't like, I wanna be the director of a parental alienation, adv, ad advocacy, you know , uh, nonprofit . But life has an interesting way of , um, of us, I guess, happening. Life has an interesting way of happening, and we end up finding our purpose in this life, our calling, what we were created for. And it's usually through our own struggles. Is that how you got into this? Because like, for me, as a mediator, I got divorced and all the fighting and everything, and a judge ordered my ex and I to mediation. I had never heard about it, didn't know about it. And I sat in the middle of it going, this is the coolest process in the world. I could do this <laugh>. And so I actually went to college and I got my degrees and then got my certification and found my life calling. And interestingly enough, tomorrow I have mediation number, tomorrow is number 3000. Wow. Um, and so, I mean, I've mediated over 10,000 hours of my life. I've done 2000 991 99 as of today is the date of recording. But it wasn't like a dream, like, oh , one day I just wanna become a mediator. How did this, like, and per alienation, like, were , were you a product of it? Did you know someone ? How did you get into it?
Lawrence Joss:First of all, 3000 hours of anything that that's incredible. Well ,
Matthew Brickman:No, no , no . 10,000 hours, 3000 mediations,
Lawrence Joss:Three , it's even more . Well, congratulations. Yeah . That's a wonderful birthday celebration coming up.
Matthew Brickman:That's very cool.
Lawrence Joss:Yeah. And , uh, yeah, you're, you're definitely , um, a hundred percent on, I didn't come to this willingly and , uh, I , uh, I have three daughters. Okay.
Matthew Brickman:And ,
Lawrence Joss:Uh, you know , uh, in a , got married at a really young age, you know, was in love and had three kids. And my partner at that time was estranged or alienated from her father. And is someone marrying someone and hearing the story, my, my dad's not a great guy and I don't have any kind of relationship with him. Not okay. Whatever, like ,
Matthew Brickman:You know ,
Lawrence Joss:And you move on. And about 10 years into our relationship, you know, they reconciled family's incredibly important to me. And, you know, definitely feel like I was somewhat of a bridge. And he was just a regular guy, just like you and I. And then , um, you know, me and my ex separated and , um, my eldest daughter at that time was 12 years old. And then my younger daughter was like eight and five. And my 12 year old stayed with my ex for, for the first year. And I thought it was just okay. I thought it was normal. She was just figuring out her stuff as , as , as a young person. And as I've gone through this process, like, I had no definition for what I was going through. You know, initially my ex had told her attorney that she wanted all three kids. 'cause you know what ? I was unstable and, you know, I , I came to it that I had my, my other two daughters 50% of the time. And a year in, I got my, my 13 year old then back at the time , uh, back 50% of the time also. 'cause there was some other issues going on in the family. And for several years it was okay. And then, like parental alienation was born from the day that my, my kid came out because she was soothing my ex's nervous system. Right. Like limbic and physical attunement usually comes from the parent to the child. But when there's some kind of attachment disorder, the child's actually soothing the parent, which is, which is backwards. And I find myself separated, getting divorced, having these struggles with my kids. And , um, and it's so incredibly painful. And then my oldest daughter stopped talking to me again, and then my middle daughter stopped talking to me. And I had all this physical pain. 'cause I was trying to navigate the world, and I walked backwards into where I am today. You know, I started doing a lot of interpersonal work, you know, and , um, through the interpersonal work, I landed up , uh, doing a two year Buddhist chaplaincy program at Giah in , uh, Santa Fe, New Mexico with Roshi John Halifax. And, and the way you do the two years is the first years inner chaplaincy where you're really figuring out yourself. And the second year supposedly is like, you're out the chaplaincy. Like, what's your calling? Right? And at that time, for me, I'm like, I'm gonna start a food truck <laugh>, you
Matthew Brickman:Know , <laugh> , I'd like to eat. I'm gonna start a food truck.
Lawrence Joss:Yeah. And it's gonna be Donna based . Everything's gonna be free. People pay , take what they like, don't do whatever. And, and that's kind of like where I was at. And, and then after that is when my middle daughter stopped talking to me. And, and all this friction was going on. And , uh, I, I was doing, again, all this interpersonal work, and then I realized that there was trauma within the family , and there was all this dysfunction going on. And, and my daughters weren't gonna grow out of it. They weren't gonna grow out of what was ever happening. There was actually something, again, trauma based that was affecting the relationships and that , um, I, I had to do something different, you know? And the first door that I worked walked through was like a 12 step door. You know , I've been around 12 step for 35 years. I started at a , at a really young age. And , uh, in Tucson, Arizona was my first 12 step meeting to gamblers Anonymous.
Matthew Brickman:Okay.
Lawrence Joss:You know, at 18 years old. And , um, so I've been around 12 step for a long time and had all this pain around my daughters and, and didn't know what to do. And I , I came in through the Al-Anon door, and Al-Anon is about families and family systems and relationships we're like Alcoholics Anonymous. And a lot of the other AA groups are more eye centric and I , and e centric. So I'm in all this pain, I don't know what to do. The 12 step groups aren't helping me anymore. And I'm like, I need to do something different. So I'm like, I'm gonna start another group and not because I want to help people, but because I don't want to die.
Matthew Brickman:Right. Like,
Lawrence Joss:This is isolating, lonely and painful. So that's kind of a weird long around answer how , how it happens just because of the pain, you know.
Matthew Brickman:So, couple questions. What , uh, when, when this started to manifest and whatnot, what year are we talking?
Lawrence Joss:I started, it was probably about five years ago starting to like, talk about the stuff on social media. And I started off with something called , um, Papa Duck . And , uh, I call my kids my baby ducks. And when I call 'em, and when , when I used to have contact and call 'em , I'd leave a message and go, quack , quack , quack , quack , quack . You know?
Matthew Brickman:Yeah.
Lawrence Joss:And , uh, I started doing this and it wasn't from a really great place of, of , of integration. Right.
Matthew Brickman:And,
Lawrence Joss:And then , uh, I started planning the 12 step stuff maybe about four years ago when we launched it nearly three years ago.
Matthew Brickman:Okay. And , um, and when you and your ex, I guess, got, got divorced, what state was that?
Lawrence Joss:California. That
Matthew Brickman:Was California. Um, and, and so the , and you said the first year your oldest just exclusively stayed with , uh, your ex and then you had 50 50 with the other, with the other two.
Lawrence Joss:Yeah. And, and part of the dynamic of, of , of this, this pathology is like my oldest daughter wouldn't get in a car with me. She wouldn't have a meal with me. Right . She wouldn't talk, talk with me. And, and my, my ex was an act and in , in , in an active, a addiction at that time. So there was a lot of stuff going on. And again, I'm trying to be the good guy. I am trying to take the high road. I'm trying to do the next right thing, and it's not really useful.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah.
Lawrence Joss:You know what I mean? If I don't have a lot of information, I'm just trying to be a good person, and people please, I land up causing a lot of harm by trying to be a good person without having any real , uh, understanding of what's happening within the family system. So , um, yeah, it was crazy. Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:I mean, one of the things that, so I've been doing mediation for almost 17 years, and like we were saying, you know , I mean , I've done, tomorrow will be 3000. Um, and when it comes to family law , um, so I'm in Florida, so I'm on the , I'm on the other side of the us . What's interesting is when it comes to mediation , uh, Florida was one of the first states back in 1987 to enact mediation. Um, they've been on the cutting edge of family law in the entire United States, really modeling. Now, most of the practitioners in Florida will say, well, okay, we're on the cutting edge to where I say, well, okay, look, it's a butter knife, but we're on the cutting edge. Right. <laugh> . So, I mean, we are leading the way and our policies, our adminis , our , you know, our, our , um, house and Senate, all the different governors through the years have done a lot of family forward things , um, which has been good to really help cut it. But Peral , alien , alien nation, you can have the perfect model set up, and we're still dealing with humanity. We're dealing with human behavior. And while the legal system can be like, this is the box, this is black and white, and this is how things work well yeah. But within that box and parameter, when a child is with a parent for X amount of days, no one's monitoring or, you know , um, you know, watching what's being said and done, which then can lead to that overall alienation. And, and , and , and I hear it a lot of times , um, and most mostly with fathers where they're like, look, I I I don't wanna rock the boat this, you know, and trying to do the good guy thing, like you were saying, trying to do the right thing, saying, I don't wanna rock the boat. I'm not gonna force it. But what all that does is it empowers the other side and feeds the other side. And if there is, I, I've, I've said many a times and I noticed it even with my ex. Um, I , I mean, and , and I used to say it jokingly, of course, the more I do mediation and the more I've learned and, and and whatnot, it was pretty profound what I was saying and didn't understand what I was saying at the time, because I used to joke with my ex. I remember being over at my mother-in-law's for, for Thanksgiving and joking with her going, Hey , um, who is the doctor that delivered, you know, my wife? And she would tell me, I'm like, well, you should really get your money back, because they forgot to cut the umbilical cord . Oh , it's, yeah , it's still attached. And then I saw that with my own kid. My daughter and I were estranged for an entire year due to parental alienation, you know, lies manipulation, but from grandmother and, and ex-wife, and to where we didn't even have , I actually had my kid , my, my kids lived with me. My ex-wife gave me the kids and moved away. So I had my kids when they were like six and eight, and they're, they're almost, by the end of the year, they'll be 26 and 28. So we're talking 20 years ago. And what was interesting was when my daughter was 18, you know, it's just like you were saying with a 12 year old, it's like, well, how do you force a 12 year old to have dinner, get in the car, come over? Well, with my daughter, she was 18, but she was still in high school. And so, you know, we still had a parenting plan and we never had , uh, we never had a bad word. We didn't have an argument. It was nothing. But the seed had been planted for so long, they were waiting for the right moment to pull that trigger. And she went over to have dinner, innocent, went over to have dinner at grandma's and didn't come home that night. And I figured, well, they'll just take her to school tomorrow. And the next day I text her, I said, you didn't come home last night? She goes, yeah, I'm not coming home and you can't make me, we already talked to a lawyer and the police and, and , and I'm, and I'm living here. What? No, you're not Lawrence . Now. I don't play around. Now granted, like you said, we don't have like, there, there, there's not a manual for this. And I didn't know about groups like yours. I didn't , I'm just like, okay, I'm a mediator. I have a parenting plan. I'm gonna , I'm gonna file a petition. I'm gonna file a motion for emergency pickup , and I'm gonna force you to come home. It's just gonna be that simple. I , I'm, I'm not playing . So I filed it and I told my daughter, you're, you're coming home. She goes, no, you're not. I said, I'm gonna sell your car if you don't come home. No, you're not. I got in the car, drove to CarMax and sold it that night. I don't play <laugh>. She finds out from her brother the next day at school that I sold her car. She's like, what? Here's So I'm like, you're coming home. She's like, no, I'm not. So look, I provide the gifts, I can turn the gifts off. So I turned off her cell phone . You turn off an 18 year old girl's cell phone , you just like went for the jugular. But of course, I'm also limiting my ability to communicate with her. But I turned it off. Well , that , that did it. And , and she's, and so then she's, she's emailing, well , I'm like, oh , well how are you emailing on the, on the laptop that I got you. I remotely locked her out of her laptop. Now, you don't get, you don't get the computer I bought you. You don't get the car. You don't get the phone, <laugh> . Oh . So, and, and meanwhile I'm still waiting for the court. The court comes back and says, well, you do have a parenting plan, but we're not gonna force her. And I'm like, what? I have a parenting plan. Well, we're not gonna force her. I'm , I was heartbroken. And so I I , I said, come, come and get your stuff. And so she came and got her stuff and, and actually on my podcast. So we ended up, it took us a year completely estranged, no words, no nothing. But we made it back. And now we are better than ever. And , and our , our story has impacted so many people. We actually, on the podcast, I actually, you know , her and I have told the story to so many people, but we never actually sat down and said, what in the world were you thinking? And we did this, Lawrence, I just turned on the mic and said, let's go. And it's, it's, and , and it's on my podcast, very, very interesting because of what she was told, all empty promises, every single one. And she thought, eh , you know what, it'll be about a week or so. Had no idea it was gonna do the damage it did. Oh . But she was a kid. She was a, she was really a pawn. And I see that, and , and , and many a times in mediation as a mediator, getting to go back and forth between the rooms, I see this going. Okay. And, and like you said, like your daughter was feeding your ex's issue or whatnot. And a lot of times, you know, when I talk to people about their parenting plans, I'm like, look, we need to do this in a way that makes sense so that we can sever the connection and the umbilical cord , because we don't want the child to have separation anxiety, but we don't want the parent to have the separation anxiety either. And so we , and so I'm very cognizant of that going, we want mom to be okay, but at the same time, we don't want to overwhelm dad. And the dad shuts down and he's not an active participant. We need this to make sense for everybody. So this isn't this shock and awe that mom is now looking for issues. Dad is overwhelmed and the child's caught in the middle. And so, you know, that is, that's a tricky dance. But I know it because I lived it , um, similar to what you're saying now. I did, I did read something and, and I just have to ask you 'cause I do , I don't understand this. Okay. In something that you had read , um, written, it said you refer to peral alienation as a disease.
Lawrence Joss:Sure. So, so again, I just wanna
Matthew Brickman:Yeah . Qualify
Lawrence Joss:For stuff like, we use the word parental alienation and we also qualify that parental alienation is a really big tent. And the word might not resonate with everyone. Estrangement might resonate with someone, or ratio might resonate this connection, it doesn't matter. It's a gathering place. Okay.
Matthew Brickman:But
Lawrence Joss:In the form of parental alienation and it being a disease, it's, it's a disease of attachment. And usually it's trauma informed. And very often it's transgenerational. Like if I look at my ex's side, so on the , um, maternal side, like she has some kind of trauma from her mother that her mother experienced. And then she had this attachment disorder with her mom, where she was taking care of her mother. Okay . At a really young age. She had to choose between her mother and her father and her father's whole family. So she's now in her 54 or something and has never connected with that whole side of the family.
Matthew Brickman:Okay. Right.
Lawrence Joss:And my kids don't talk to anyone in my whole family. It's not like they have an issue with me and they don't like me. Like they have to sever ties with everything in order to take care of their mother, is the way that is, the way that the disease manifests. And then if you look at it a little bit further, and you look at my part because I, I co-created the family system. I lived in the family system. I was part of the Sam family system signing off on it.
Matthew Brickman:Sure. And
Lawrence Joss:A lot of my recovery is owning like, Hey, wow. I , I had a part in that is my attachment to my mother is when I was in vitro in , in her belly. She was very dysregulated and very anxious and I was soothing her nerve nervous system at a really, really, really young age. And you see a lot of a measurement and codependency in families. And, and that's where a lot of it stems from. So I was attracted to someone that needed that same kind of attention and that same kind of love. And that's the wife that I picked.
Matthew Brickman:Got it.
Lawrence Joss:Right. So this whole thing, this disease pathology, attachment disorder, transgenerational trauma, like if you really dig deep down to the roots of it, at least for me, like I am predisposed to pick an apartment like this. And I keep repeating relationships where people are emotionally needing something. 'cause that feels like love. And it wasn't until I started doing my own interpersonal work, like I'm Oh, that , that was just this real deep need of a tiny child that I'm still trying to fill with my partners. And that's why I am picking them. And that's why the love felt so intense. But was was it love , was it just something dysfunctional that I'm used to? And there I created a family system that now is, is a , yeah. Is a challenge for my kids. 'cause this is really about the kids, right?
Matthew Brickman:Sure.
Lawrence Joss:It's really a child-centric point of view.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. So, and , and , and it is funny when you , when when you talk interpersonal, so after my divorce , um, was when, you know, like I, like I said, you know, we, we spent Lawrence . So we, we, we had a very amicable divorce. We filed everything the day after Mother's Day. We were divorced three days before Father's Day, very quick. No attorneys, no mediation, no nothing, just in and out. Simple. No issues. It wasn't until about a year later that it started a 12 year war. Um, we were in and out of court , uh, 43 motions for contempt enforcement, 12 years of litigation. Um, and of course, you know, the kids caught in the middle of it. And it wasn't until, you know, the judge ordered us to mediation. Um, that then that was where I was like, okay, fine. Well, so then I went to school in order to become a mediator, a lot of interpersonal classes. Um , my favorite class was interpersonal conflict. I actually aced the class. I got a hundred percent. It was the best therapy I have ever had. I learned my triggers, I learned what made me, me, like what do I, like, I didn't realize that when I was dating, I was really a chameleon. I would morph into whatever. It's like, well , what do you like to eat? That's what I like to eat. Well, no, no, no , no. What do you like to do? Whatever you want to do. And it wasn't until the divorce, and there was, I think it was like nine years in between like getting divorced. And then I think when I met my, my, my current wife, but with my schooling and all the education that, that , that came along with it, lot of interpersonal lot. I mean, I , I took anger management. That was one of the best courses ever. Like my ex knew every single button. I didn't even know my own buttons. So she could come up and give me a look and I would explode. And she just loved, she just, she feeds on the chaos. And I didn't, I didn't know that. And so I found that I was constantly reacting instead of responding. And that just kept me in that cycle. And then interestingly enough, kids were the same way. They would respond or react to whatever I was doing. And it was interesting that once I took the interpersonal , uh, conflict class and started to really , like you said, you really get to the root, not just like, I, I tell people all the time in, in mediation, I'm like, no, no, no, no. You are picking the fruit. You guys are just covered and just sloppy fruit. Let's get to the root of this thing. What's really going on behind the scenes. Um, because I know for me, until I got to the root of the matter, it was just a cycle. I was just stuck in a cycle. Um , I, the , the people I were, I was dating my, my grandmother , uh, she's been gone a couple of years now, but she was awesome. Awesome. She was like, Matthew, they're no better than than your ex. Like, I mean, we would go to dinner and have a , a dinner interaction, one dinner interaction. She's like, your picker's broken. And , and , and I mean, my, my own grandmother's going , your picker's broken. Nope. Nope. This isn't it . Nope. It's the same . And she's, and and she goes, they just look better. But it's the same thing that you've got out of , of just like you said, it was a cycle. I didn't even know I was in it. Um, and, and it wasn't until I started with the interpersonal that I was able to start breaking that cycle because I started to figure out who I was. Um, I think a lot of people, I tell a lot of people, you know, why are you getting divorced? Well, who are you? I don't know. Well, who am I? I don't know. Well, let's go find out together. And then they find out going, I don't think I like you . I don't think I like you either. And then they get divorced. They have no idea. I'm like, I'm like, if you don't know who you are, you don't know what you're sharing. And I think I, I think everybody needs therapy, interpersonal conflict, anger management, and then you can get a license to get married. <laugh>.
Lawrence Joss:No , it's , it's such a valid point. You're picking, you're , you're , you're picking up and, and , and sharing with me because all these parents and family members that are coming into the program or into one of these doors, most of their first steps are talking to an attorney, a therapist, a judge, whatever it is. And no one knows who they are. Yeah . What's going on. They're all dysregulated, they're all reacting to anything and everything. And they're blowing stuff up.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah .
Lawrence Joss:And the point of a lot of the work we do is, you know, find yourself to heal your life. Heal yourself to heal your life. Come home. If you don't come home, you're just gonna keep doing the same thing and the kids are gonna suffer. And, and I just wanted to touch on one other point you made that it took like a year after your divorce before stuff started to blow up. So my first year in separation, before the divorce was finalized, my oldest daughter didn't talk to me. And then she was reintegrated with my other daughters, and I had them 50% of the time. And then I started experiencing like, physical pain from all the stress and stuff. And that became the tipping point for my two, my, my oldest daughter to stop talking to me again. Okay. Like, you know, and it's , I think it's a really important point because a lot of families are experiencing forms and fashions of alienation or estrangement. And it doesn't take hold until it does, but it's there. Yeah. And only not 1% of the cases does it actually get to these extremes where people are on the outer edges of the bell curve. So it's interesting how it's always there. It's, it's growing and sometimes it has its own , um, energy. It has its own inertia. It starts to move because of the language and the way stuff's presenting. And then the kids start to present and start to move it in their own way. And then sometimes it just hits that tipping point, you know?
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Well, and I think too, it depends on the age of the child, their maturity, what they know. I mean, and, and one of the things that I've noticed , um, in the years mediating is, and it's getting worse, not better. <laugh> , is the, the parent child relationship lines are so blurred because there is no, I am the parent, you or the child, the children, especially in a divorce arena, the child becomes the confidant, the child. You hear it all the time. Oh my gosh, my mother is my best friend, <laugh> , it is like, your mother should not be your best friend. Your mother's your mother. Go get a friend. But when that line gets blurred, and sometimes, you know, parents use the child as a sounding board or the , the , you know, it's their confidant, or Hey, you know, let's get the same outfit and let's go do, like, when that line gets blurred, problems start to happen.
Lawrence Joss:So I was doing a , the two year Buddhist chaplaincy program at Choppa . And , uh, we, part of the programming was to do systems theory, right? 'cause this is all a systemic issue.
Matthew Brickman:Okay?
Lawrence Joss:So we're doing systems training and we break out into dyads or triads, and we start looking at systems in our lives that we want to kind of like look at. So I'm like, Hey, my, my family system sucks. So we draw out the family system, who's on top of the family system, how's the family system structured,
Matthew Brickman:Okay ?
Lawrence Joss:While we're starting the exercises, me and my ex, or my soon to be ex on the top, and then the kids chronologically underneath it. And as we start to go through the exercise, I realize that I'm on the bottom of the family system. My oldest daughter has been elevated to a parent status at 12 years old, or 13 years old. So exactly what you're saying, like the whole system gets, you know, tipped on its access . The kids become the parents, the targeted parent or the parent that has the problem becomes like a lower on the system. And they all make these decisions, and you're not included in it as a , as a parent, whether it's a mom, a , dad, a , whatever it is, it's fascinating.
Matthew Brickman:Well, and, and, and many a times, many times, you know, parents say, well, I'll tell you , my kid is not gonna like this plan. They're not gonna like it. And I said, tell me the last time where an inmate got to say to the warden, you know what warden? I don't think I like getting up at like, no inmates. Do not run the asylum. No, no, no, no. I said, I said, now your kids, look, those are your kids. They have an opinion, but they don't have a say. They have an opinion. And you need to let them know that their opinions are valued. Otherwise, as parents, were unilaterally making decisions for 'em. So I'm like, look, it's, it's a suggestion box. Thank you. Put it in the suggestion box. You're not in charge. Um, and, and many a times I have to then reel them back, take 'em all the way to the top. The very, you know, the header of a parenting plan. I said, what does this say? I said, it says parenting plan, not child plan. These aren't rules for children. These are rules for parents who are acting like children. These are rules for you. You need the rules, not your kids. Your kids are gonna be fine as long as you get the rules. That's why a parenting plan and re , you know, reeling them in, you know, helps. As, as I'm going back and forth with them and, and helping them negotiate and get these plans done. Um , you know, it's, it's, it's, so many of 'em are like , um, like you're saying, like, like with the hierarchy. I had read, I don't remember where in one of one of my many studies, they actually listed the hierarchy. And it was interesting because many a times, just like you said, like you're on the bottom <laugh> and the kid is on the top, right? So I remember reading like the top five things, like if you're gonna put things in just, and, and , and many of times I have to warn people, I'm like, look, this isn't your entire life. Like if this is a totem pole, there's just the top five. There's many of things after that. We're just talking the top five. So, you know, if we were gonna list things in a healthy order within a family unit, you know, if you had friends and family, if you had a wife, yourself, children, you know, work, how would you structure it? And I remember seeing it that number one is self, because it goes back to look even on an airplane, please put on your own oxygen mask before helping that next. If you don't take care of yourself, if you don't know who you are, then you were no good to anybody else. Now it's not selfish, it's self-preservation. And it's like, I need to know who I am so I can be the best husband or the best mom, or the best student or whatever. It's know yourself, right? So you are , you , you are first. Then if you're in a relationship, spouse is next. Okay, great. Okay, well then what work work is next? And many of people are like, what my work? And I'm like, yeah. And then what? And then your kids, and then your friends and family, and they're like, no, no, no, that's all wrong. And I'm like, okay. You know, how would you, how would you do it? Usually it's like, no, no, no . My kids are my world. I'm like, and guess what? When your kids emancipate, you and your husband are getting divorced, welcome to reality. Because you, that's your common thread. Oh, we're parents for them. And when they're gone , um, who are you? I don't know. We're done. I said, no, I said , I said, look, it's you and then it's you and your spouse because the two become one. Now life is gonna happen. Okay, great. You're gonna then , um, have kids. But you both have, you both have jobs. And if you don't have jobs, well then you're probably not gonna have kids. 'cause you can't afford kids, right? So fine, you have work, then you have your kids. Don't put your kids in front of your job. You'll be unemployed. So, and I said , and don't put your wife or your husband before your kids because you're gonna have resentment and don't work before your spouse. You're gonna create resentment as well. And definitely don't put your family in front of your kids because now your family's gonna tell you how to parent. Well, that's not healthy. You should go back up to then your spouse, the two of you should be parent . And so I take them through this going, if you don't have this structured, oh, that's why you're sitting in front of me. Okay, let's see if we can fix this so you don't come back. And that's sort of the structure that you're talking about, that, that, that systematic structure, right?
Lawrence Joss:A hundred percent. That systematic structure. I love that you're having these conversations with parents because like, you know, we are pretty dumb when we come into a situation where we don't have any kind of tools. And I'm, so, I'd be so curious to be a fly on the wall while you're explaining this to people. And most people barely have the energy to show up. I I just think it's a wonderful service to provide. And it might take saying it several times before. Yeah,
Matthew Brickman:Yeah .
Lawrence Joss:Like people here , I would presume.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. So, so, so I'll tell you , you know, as, as, as we're talking and , and one of the things where, where you're talking like with, with, with, with your mom and then even with your ex and her dad and how, you know, things just get generational, right? So a lot of times, Lawrence, there are times in mediation where, you know, the two parties are just going at it back and forth. And a lot of times, you know, I mean, I, I like to think of myself as a fireman. Um , like if it was like, oh, what do you wanna be when you grow up? I wanna be a fireman. Oh, you mean a mediator? Yes. It's a controlled burn, right? <laugh>, you know, you're sitting there, it's a controlled burn. They need to get it out, but in a controlled atmosphere, so then you can then move them through the process. But a lot of times we need to burn down all the negative stuff because that's preventing them from creating a future and it needs to be there. And maybe not in therapy. Like a lot of people have said, Matthew, this was better than any therapy we ever had, even though it's not therapeutic because like, you know, Lawrence calmly, quietly, and respectfully tell your ex how you're feeling calm client respect may not be on the menu today. Right. Especially after the fact. Or if you're sitting in a mediation or you know, you know, like me, it was a year later, like right then, then all hell breaks loose, calm and quiet and respectful or not on the menu. And so a lot of times I'd let 'em go at it in a controlled arena. And so , um, but then, then you have to reel 'em back in. And this is how sometimes I'll reel 'em in . Especially, they always, they always get lost in the kids, not the money or the house. It's always the kids, right? And so what , and , but it , it , it's interesting because it goes, I I then go to generation and so and so, and so I, I I calm 'em down. I'm like, all right , let me ask both of you a question. You guys have grandparents, right? Or had grandparents, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so , uh, they had I guess your parents, right? Yeah. Yeah . Were your parents a lot like your grandparents? Yeah. Yeah . Good, good and bad, right? Like, you know, some, some good traits, some bad traits. Yeah . And , uh, so, you know, welcome to your parents. Now I'm gonna pause you there. You do realize that today has absolutely nothing to do with the two of you that gets me some of the craziest looks like this is our divorce, Matthew. But I'm like, you understand this has nothing to do with you. Like Yeah , yeah . We're talking about your kids and yourself . This today, nothing to do with you. Let's go back to our conversation. So you guys have parents, right? And you're a lot like your mom and your dad. Yeah . Yeah . Okay. So you realize that if you had grandparents and your parents are like your grandparents and your parents had you, and you are like your parents, if you know where I'm going with this, you do understand your kids are watching you. Whether you think they are or not, they're watching you. And so the decisions that you were making right now are affecting your unborn grandchildren. Now let that sink in for a minute. Lawrence usually at that point, somebody starts to cry <laugh> because when they, when when you take them out of this is mine, and you say , look, look at what's gone on through the generations. You have a chance to do something different for your kids who are one day gonna be parents and they're gonna have kids. You understand that this is so much bigger than you, that you usually changes the rest of the story, you know? Um, but being able to point that out and pull those pieces out as they're going through their emotional. But I pick up on that as I let them go with that controlled burn and the accusations are flying and you did this, and I'm going, okay, that was hurt from that and this was hurt from that. And that's probably because of this. And even though I have no, like, psychology training , um, <laugh>, but it's life training, right?
Lawrence Joss:Yeah . And , and that's really in interesting when you, when you point out that some of your clients say like, this is better than therapy because in my experience with , with , with , with some mediators is they do have a lot of interpersonal work. Like you're saying, you went through all that stuff, but they're not stuck being in a lane , and they don't need to be nice and they don't have to be therapeutical. They can actually talk about what's actually happening. And for me in the past, it's cut through a lot of the tension and stuff's there because they're able to talk about what's really happening and bring their own life experience in where a therapist can . So I think that's really a , again, like a wonderful service and , and a wonderful conversation to give parents. The, the , the visibility of, of all the generational stuff, of all the interpersonal stuff, and most importantly, that yes, the kids are in the form formation years and , and they're watching and taking notes and that they're getting built the exact same way, you know?
Matthew Brickman:Yeah.
Lawrence Joss:Which is, I would say one of the hardest things as a parent for me is watching my youngest daughter I still have contact with, and my oldest kids , I hear a little bit about here and there, but a lot of the stuff they're struggling with is exactly just, you know , uh, shadows of myself and, and , and my ex-wife. And , uh, and that that is really challenging.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Yeah . It's , it's , it's those fragments. Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.
Sydney Mitchell:If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that's info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.
Matthew Brickman:For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.