Mediate This!
Mediate This!
Matthew Brickman and Dana Casperson Reveal How To Find Your Power In Mediation & Negotiation
Matthew Brickman and Dana Casperson reveal tactics on how to your find your power in negotiation, mediation and everyday life situations. Dana is a practitioner of "constructive conflict", award-winning performing artist, TEDx speaker, and best-selling author. She works with individuals, workplaces, and communities worldwide as a trainer, coach, consultant, and dialogue designer. Dana draws on the knowledge and insight gained from her experience and training as a mediator and conflict analyst as well as her 40 years career as a performing arts innovator.
Conflict Is an Opportunity: Twenty Fundamental Decisions for Navigating Difficult Times on Amazon.
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Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.
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You're Not the Only One - The Agony of Divorce: The Joy of Peaceful Resolution
Matthew Brickman
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.
Matthew Brickman:This shocked me, Dana. So, I had a mediation last year. The husband appeared from prison virtual sitting in his jumpsuit next to his prison guard for his divorce. Okay. The wife was in her lawyer's office. I'm thinking whatever she wants, she's going to get, he's in prison. Like there's a definite power, like she's gonna ask it. He's in prison. He doesn't really have any power. And this , I think it's gonna be a quick mediation. Right. I was, I was shocked. I mean , I've been doing this for 18 years. I was shocked. This guy, no attorney in prison. Like you had just said he found his own power. Mm . He actually had power. And this, this, this is, this is what happened. She wanted to get divorced. He's in prison. He's served one year. He's got two more left. She just wants to get divorced and move on, but he's got some things that he wants. Well, she's like, well, you're not getting them . And he said, well, then I do not consent to , uh, uh, the, the prison transfers in order to show up in the court in person as I'm required in order for you to get your divorce, and you can wait two years until I get out.
Dana Casperson:Okay.
Matthew Brickman:I was like, what? This guy's got power to negotiate because Yeah. In order to get divorced, if they didn't figure it out today or on that day, then you know what, in order for for that to happen, he's gotta be transferred from the main prison. He's gotta go through two different other jails to finally end up in the local jail. So he can go in front of the judge with her to actually have a trial. But that's based on his consent. And he's like, I'm not going to consent to it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Therefore, you are not getting divorced. We're gonna be married for the next two years. You can't move on. And when I finally get released, then we, we'll deal with this. He had, he found his own power, and it was power.
Dana Casperson:The decisions were his to make
Matthew Brickman:Was shocked . I , I , I'm like, what is a prisoner? What kind of power does a prisoner have? Well, he found his power.
Dana Casperson:Yeah. And I think that's so applicable . You know, now in the world, there's so much chaos going on that, and people feel, I, I find people are really feeling helpless a lot. Yeah. And that the focus on, okay , uh, I , the things I can and cannot impact, but to really look at what I can impact, and within that, what kind of power do I have to, to be able to make the impacts I want to. So I think it's a very important generative place that we have of what am I, again, paying attention to in terms of power? What might I pay attention to? Uh , what is it that I, I want to move toward? Am I moving toward it? What's gonna help me move toward it? Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. It's, it's power. Yeah . The power dynamic. And, and, and, you know, one of the things that I, I've seen too, is again, asking, you know, as , as a mediator, asking, you know, what are their goals? What are their fears? What are their hesitations? Gives me an idea of do they feel empowered? You know, because as a mediator, our job is to empower the parties to take control of their own situation . So we're there to, you know, if they can't find it, we're , they're sort of to plug them into the generator so they can be empowered. Yeah . And have that voice to say, no , you know what? I do want this. One of the things, so like, you know, I'm in South Florida and we're just a melting pot of different cultures, especially south, you know, the , you know , the Caribbean, south American culture plays so much into power. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . I mean, not even, you know, I know we've talked some about gender, but culture, and it's amazing. I love helping and watching and negotiating with , uh, south, south American women. It is different than most , uh, American women, like in a mediation, I can say to a , you know, say, okay, what do you want? And they're like, and I want this, and I want this, and I want that . Like, they know their power and they're not afraid to voice it. Now, a lot of times with an American woman, well , I don't know. Um, I guess like whatever I'm entitled to, and culture is really interesting with that power dynamic. Um , I've seen more, you know, I've done a lot of , um, you know , uh, middle Eastern where even, you know, whether it's Arab or Israeli, both of those cultures, even though they're, they , they can seem so polar opposite. They're both very empowered women. They know exactly what they want, and they're not afraid to say, Hmm . Uh , but both of the men are also a power . So then you've got these power struggles , um, just even culturally, which I find is very, very interesting.
Dana Casperson:Yeah. I work a lot with, I , I lived in Europe for 30 years working as a performing artist. And so my network is quite international because the dance world's very international. Okay . And in my trainings now, they're typically people coming from all different countries. And so , um, like you say, the frameworks that people bring , um, really shape what they , uh, initially think is possible in terms of what they can say or, or think about or make possible. And to, to what you're saying about how what a mediator can do. A mediator has all these different access points available to them that they can bring to the people. And that's actually what I'm trying to do in this book, is to make those available to people on their own. Yeah . Because it's not easy before they get there , before they get there. And it's also, it's really not easy to , um, to shift your mindset to notice what you're doing. And it takes time. And that's why my orientation is toward, before you get there, really start noticing this and, and noticing that you're already practicing it. And then practicing consciously so that , um, you recognize this is not some kind of external formula that I need to be like, okay, I have to use eye language and, you know, whatever it is. Like any external formula can be used as a weapon. But your internal mindset, if you develop the strength of your capacity to, to see, to notice, and to decide, then you're adaptable and you can move with whatever comes at you. So that's what these 20 decisions is based on. 20 questions , um, helps with,
Matthew Brickman:So, so you said you were in Europe, and I know we, we talked in the beginning that you were , um, you're a dancer. How do you, and, and I think we had , we had talked about a little bit just, you know, just , um, almost like choreo , choreographing, even just that dance of negotiation mm-hmm <affirmative>. How have you been able to sort of incorporate all of that together?
Dana Casperson:Yeah. So initially I didn't because I thought I needed to be really serious and keep them separate so they wouldn't damage each other in some way. But eventually I realized I had really thrown the baby out with the bath water . And that, like, with conflict, we're already always choreographing, shaping every situation. So in terms of the dialogue design point that you brought up earlier. Yeah. An ex , an example is , um, a project that I created with a group called the Michael Douglas Collective called the Polarity Party, which is a large scale public dialogue on polarization that I've done in several different countries. I'm actually going down to Texas to do it , um, next month. And in that we use configuration, we use motion, people walk side by side at certain points. We use , uh, something similar to what you named. People have different books with information that they read. They take on that they change the books. So you start to notice how, how mutable and changeable our sense of relationship to each other is. So we use , um, the way we use the body as a place to reflect internally, because it's always already doing that. Right. We use configuration as a way to notice what we're projecting on the other people, and also to experience, again, what typical relationships feel like. We use , uh, larger group motions. Motions , um, not dance at all. 'cause I don't invite people into things they don't feel comfortable with. Sure, sure. But the way people move through the room, observation spaces , um, walking together and talking, sitting in different configurations to talk, because we found the different configurations enable certain things. So we're shaping both the timing. It's very, it's fluid, but it's structured. There's groups that move through these different elements. Um, we are using the body to, to both move, to be still to reflect, to exchange, and ultimately to open up a broader sense of what polarization is, what our internal , um, unconscious ideas about it are. How that's impacting what we think might be possible. Um, so I use that, those kind of , uh, physical elements in those dialogues. I also use them in training a lot because I find it really helps everybody's in their body. Everybody's body's registering everything. Yeah. And so if we can tap into that, and not in like a weird, you know, let's do improv about conflict kind of a way Sure . That makes people uncomfortable, but really something that we're already in our body. Yeah. What is our body telling us? How can that help us both , um, process what our emotions are there for? Yeah . 'cause the emotions are important information. What are they leading us to? Um, how can we notice how we're shaping our literal physical environments? And, you know, are we, like you say, face-to-face too tight? Can we open things up? Can we change how time is is working? There's so many decisions that are choreographic, and of course they're in other fields as well. I see them as choreographic because I started there . So I , more and more I include those elements as I realize how we're always shaping everything. Yeah. And how we can do it more consciously to have a better conflicts, better life.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. You know, I, I , I had , I'd heard someone recently, they were , they were saying, you know, similar to you , like, there are things shaping you, like you're being influenced. It's like, okay, well what are you being influenced by? It's not, are you being influenced? You're being influenced. And then mm-hmm <affirmative> . Okay, well, are you aware of it? And there's just so many people are not even aware of all the different variants , you know, various influences, whether it's media, tv, even just where you live geographically will influence you. Like, I mean, I live about 20 miles from my daughter, but just, it , it's , it is just night and day. Just the two different little cities that we live in. Just the, the speed of things, the access of things. Yeah. The hurriedness of things. Then that changes the attitude of the people at the grocery store. You know, there , there's, you know, like you're being influenced, but a lot of it is slowing down and being like, okay, are you aware of it? Mm-hmm . And by having a book like this to where they can prep , um, I had a podcast years ago when I started podcasting. I had a podcast and it was, it was, how should you prep for mediation was one episode. The next episode was, how do I prep for mediation <laugh>? You know, because it's like, well , what do I do as a mediator? What should you do? And that's where your book comes into, look, if you can gain control over yourself, self-control, well then that's gonna help with the negotiation with the other person. So lemme ask you this , um, because I , I , I would imagine it's probably a little difficult to do the dance, the choreography, the breathing, you know , I mean, you know, some of the physicality stuff that you've done in a virtual setting. Do you do most of your stuff in person? Do you still do some virtual, do you do consulting and stuff and training and coaching and stuff? Do you do both? And have you seen just a difference in whether it's in person versus versus virtual?
Dana Casperson:Yeah .
Matthew Brickman:And is it better or worse in certain, I guess? I mean, I , I don't think we can say, okay. It's better all the time. It's worse, all the Yeah . It , it's a tool. Yeah . You know , it's a tool not for every situation, every person. But what's, what's been your experience since things have gone virtual?
Dana Casperson:Right. Initially when the pandemic started, I , I had only been doing in-person stuff. Yeah . A lot of travel. Yeah. Yeah . And, and I had been teaching a course at a university, and the , the university said, do you wanna try to teach it online? And I thought, no , it's not gonna work. They're like, just try it. Everybody's doing it. So I tried it, and now I , I do almost all of my teaching online. It's super effective. Yeah . And actually, the physical stuff works fine online. I adapted it for , um, for an online Oh ,
Matthew Brickman:That's great.
Dana Casperson:Um , situation. Yeah. Because we're already always still in our body, even when we're online. And , um, I do , um, I sometimes I do also do in-person things occasionally. Look , I'm going down to Texas to do this thing soon, for example. Um, or I work sometimes with organizations in person, but I also work online. And I find the online thing actually provides a slight abstraction that can help people , uh, help people not escalate in the same way. Yeah. Um, <laugh> , I actually had one of my, one of my beloved teachers, Susan Terry said, she's like, I love mediating online. She's like, if things get really outta control, I just mute everybody.
Matthew Brickman:I have done it
Dana Casperson:<laugh> .
Matthew Brickman:I actually, I actually had to threaten attorneys. The attorneys were yelling at each other so much. And both the clients, Dana, both the clients went like this. Like , uh, and they're just sitting there shaking their heads, and I'm going, guys, if you don't stop, I'm gonna mute you. I'm gonna mute you. I'm gonna put you in separate rooms. I'm gonna mute you. Don't make me mute you. And they just kept out . And I muted 'em . And both the , both the clients then were just smiling because you could see their attorneys yelling, but nobody can hear 'em <laugh> . And I'm like, don't make me mute you,
Dana Casperson:<laugh> . Yeah . Yeah . That's ,
Matthew Brickman:That's a great tool. The other, you know, one of the other things I found, Dana, I had a guy, he got really, really emotional. And he started out, and he's yelling at the other, he's yelling at his wife's attorney. He's yelling, and by the time he's done, he's standing up and he's yelling. And all of a sudden he stopped in the middle of his yell, he stopped. You could see it on his face. It was the coolest thing. All of a sudden he sees himself in his little window.
Dana Casperson:Oh , wow . Yeah. And
Matthew Brickman:How obnoxious he looks , standing up, pointing, yelling, and there's nobody even in the room around him. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And he sat down and he started to having a conversation again. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . It was the neatest dynamic to see that he got all emotional, but then realized here yelling at a screen and look at what you look like.
Dana Casperson:<laugh>. Yeah. And, and I think it gives people, the online thing gives people , um, also a , a a this distance so they're not emotionally reacting in the same way to each other so they can get a little more distance. Yeah. Actually, when I, when I'm teaching, I ask people to turn off their own self view because I, they get a little more cognitive space. That's one thing that helps for me is that they're more than directly in conversation and not checking themselves all the time and Okay . Getting distracted. Um, one thing that , uh, one thing that I do miss online is, is the literal walking side by side . 'cause I, it's a really powerful action. Yeah. Yeah. So, I, I love to be able to do that in person. I always work with that when I'm, when I'm with groups in , in together. Um, but both of 'em are really great and so much work can get done online. And it, it's, it eases things up for people. It makes it more , less expensive for them. Um , very much so . It enables people to come together. 'cause a lot of my , uh, people are international. It helps, you know, people can come from different countries, meet up , um, and be done. And it's cheaper. So yeah . It's, it brings more ease. I think to a lot of times I work also , uh, do a lot of work in the artistic community with Okay . Organiza arts organizations, which of course are , um, not well funded . So it helps , um, those people as well have more capacity to be able to have enough resources to do the work they wanna do.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. Yeah. Um, it , it's one of the things that I've found with, with the online, like you said, I mean, aside from the cost mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , and, you know, in a legal setting, it does help move cases through, because like prior to, to, you know, really going virtual in 2020, a lot of it, there was such a backlog of being able to resolve conflict because resources were not there. People didn't have the money to fly to a particular place Yes . To get into a room to actually deal with it. So it created a backlog, but the backlogs increased the conflict because it went on longer and longer. It's long . Yeah . Whereas now they're able to get in, get things resolved. And when I, so I actually had the idea of virtual mediation in 2009. Hmm . So this system that we're on was actually was custom built for me by Cisco WebEx in 2009. Oh, wow. I reached out to Apple and Microsoft. There was a little company called Vu , Uhhuh . <affirmative> . And I reached out to WebEx. Nobody had the technology back in 2009, because all we had was either Skype, which was two way mm-hmm <affirmative> . Uh , or we were getting FaceTime, which was two way . We couldn't do three, we couldn't do breakout rooms. They didn't have any of that stuff. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But I found when I called Cisco, I got a guy on the line and, and was describing to him what I did. And he was fascinated. He's like, wow, that's a cool job, <laugh>. I'm like, I need this in the virtual world. Mm . Yeah . So he's like, we could build that. Huh . So it was a lot of money. Took about a year. Wow. Wow. And they built me this platform, which it was interesting, Dana, for until 2020. So from oh nine to 2020, I was spending almost $300 a month to have this platform. And I was doing some, not a whole lot, but I was doing some divorce, I was doing military divorce out of country stuff , um, a hundred percent settlement rate online, because people were like, yeah, let's get this thing done. Let's , they were not , let's do it . Yeah . Looking , drag this thing on. Yeah. And so now what was interesting was, was that , of course, the technology back then wasn't like it is now. So they had created breakout rooms. And what was interesting was when we'd go into a breakout room, there were no cameras because they were not able to move a camera into a breakout room without creating a hole that would exploit for the hackers. Okay . So when we'd go into, like in the main meeting, we could screen share, we could see each other, but if we went into a breakout, we could see each other, or sorry, we could hear each other, we could screen share . We just couldn't see each other. And that went on for a co for a number of years until they were able to get the technology to carry it over. Wow . And so, and so what was interesting was, like you said, with with with the emotions, I actually started marketing to women's shelters. And , um, because these, you know, these were people that had gotten out of horrible relationships. They're in hiding. They do not want to go to the same geographic location, in fact. And so it created a safe space to get them divorced from the abuser without having to face the abuser in a safe setting . Oh , fantastic. Yeah . Yeah . And so that was where I first started. I'm like, there's gotta be a way to do this. Huh . Um , and then what I noticed was, I noticed, and, and I had a judge , uh, recently that, that that asked me, said, Matthew, you know, are , you know, since things have gone virtual, 'cause I know you were doing it pre covid , I said, are they , are more things settling? Are they better? Are they worse? How are things? I'm like, I, I keep track of everything, but I've never looked at , added things up. So I'm like, let me look and see, I'll get back with you. What I noticed was going through there that prior to , uh, COVID and things go in almost all virtual, the settlement rate for first time being in mediation with me was in the 60 percentile settlement, which was good. Now, I don't care about, like, it , it's not about my settlement, it's about me empowering the people. That meant that 60% said, look, you know what? We have enough information, we want to settle. We're empowered to settle, we're gonna settle. Great. Yeah . Not a problem. Yeah . But virtual was in the 80, was 82%. Huh . And so, so then I started sending out feedback requests going back in time, going, Hey, can you leave me feedback? Because feedback will give you the most accurate information about what actually happened. Right? Yeah. Afterwards. And what was interesting was the majority of the feedback, you know, and , and , and so, you know, basically if I summed it up, what it said is , um, it was better that I did not have to sit in the room across the table from the person that I'm having conflict with. I'm able to do it from the safety, comfort, and convenience of my own space. Yeah. And that helped keep the emotion down and helped me be able to focus on what really mattered and gain , uh, gain resolution and be able to negotiate and feel empowered, because I didn't have to sit across from that person that I knew would just lean in and give that look.
Dana Casperson:Right.
Matthew Brickman:And they could be like, I don't wanna look at you, I'm gonna just turn off the camera. Right. <laugh> . And they were more empowered. Plus they could take a break. Like, you know, I've had people say , Hey, can I step out for a cigarette break? And I'm like, go for it. Can I go get something to eat? Uh , you know, it's been a couple of hours. Go for it. Have a , you know, you know, when I go into a Let's take a
Dana Casperson:Break, everybody has a space. Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. I mean, it creates that environment mm-hmm <affirmative> . That is, makes it, you know, very conducive for the conversation. It's almost like too, like, you know, one of the tools that I, I used to use when we were more in person was if things started to get heated, it's like, okay, look, we're just gonna take a bathroom break, go outside, take a walk, let's just breathe. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like , they're all the same type , similar things. Like, let's walk away from the negotiation table. Okay, now let's, okay, we've, we've had some time to decompress, let's come back and negotiate. What's interesting is online they can sort of do that throughout the entire process.
Dana Casperson:Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:It's not just, okay, let's create a space. The entire space has been created during the entire process. Yeah . Have you seen any of those, you know, dynamics, experiences? Oh yeah. Anything different? Better, more like,
Dana Casperson:Yeah, I see, I see the same thing. People feel more comfortable. They're in their own space. They could shut their computer if they want to. Um, the having, being able to take breaks and immediately be on your own, gives people more room. Um, I'm also able, I find now to do several day , like two day workshops of long hours a day with people , um, if you time it right. And you also alternate between , uh, physical stuff where they're reflecting internally, things where they're engaging, things where they're on their own in breakout rooms and, and in larger group settings. So it enables you to move really easily between different types of modalities that shape people's energies so that they don't get worn out. Um, I can, what I also like is I can see everybody's face and I don't have to like, be, you know, turning to somebody I can, so I can really keep track of what's going on energetically in the space. And, you know, intervene if I see something start to head off in some direction, and I notice that now when I'm back in person, that I'm like, oh, wow, I have to turn and look at people <laugh> . And then , then you have to make sure you're not looking at someone longer than the other <laugh>. Right .
Matthew Brickman:You gotta balance everybody
Dana Casperson:Out. Yeah. So that, that's actually easier online, I find. Um, yeah. So I think they , they, like you say , they have different strengths and for different situations,
Matthew Brickman:Talking about looking at people. One of the judges that I talked to recently said the same thing. She said, you know, I've really, really, really enjoyed , um, virtual trials. She goes, if we're actually in the courtroom , I get to see the ju , I get to see the jury, I get to see the prosecutor, I get to see the defense. I get to see everybody except for the witness. She goes, all I see is the back of the witness's head.
Dana Casperson:Oh, wow. She said,
Matthew Brickman:Now she goes, now I get to see everybody. She goes, I had a trial. I knew that witness was lying. I could see it in their face. She goes, I've never been able to see a witness's face.
Dana Casperson:Wow . I never thought of that. Yeah. Right. That's a , so that's a choreographic thing,
Matthew Brickman:Right? That's a
Dana Casperson:Configuration.
Matthew Brickman:So just like you're saying, it's like, you know, the judge goes, I could see everybody's face and in the real world setting, I couldn't,
Dana Casperson:That's a perfect ex choreographic example and how we inherit choreographic setups , and that's just how a courtroom is. Yeah. And , and then when something happens, then we notice it. We're like, oh, wow. The way I'm facing and that doesn't work. Yeah. What would it look like to change that? You know, what might be possible to enable the judge to have access to the witness's physical experience and Yeah. That's interesting.
Matthew Brickman:I mean, yeah. So, so yeah. I mean, even just, you know, choreograph and staging. Like back in the day, I used to, you know, I mean, they, they had always taught us, you know, staging is everything. So get there a little early stage. The room, I always liked round tables opposed to , uh, square or rectangular. Uh, because I didn't like 'em opposite. I liked, okay, we want it round. Um , there were a lot of times where I would put the attorneys on one side and the parties together on the other mm-hmm <affirmative> . Where they're looking across the table at their attorney for direction, but they've gotta turn side again, shoulder to shoulder, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah. And I would do that a lot. I had a mediation. Crazy Dana <laugh> . I actually, I actually had my ex-wife ask me to mediate between her and my adult son. They were having such conflict and there , and , and my son lives with her. And so it's, and her and her new husband and her new kids, and he's living with her. And she's like, I need your help. And I'm like, okay, hold on. You want me to be neutral between you and my own kid? I'm like, challenge. Accept it . <laugh> ,
Dana Casperson:Game
Matthew Brickman:On. But it was so emotional as you could imagine. Yeah. We're like, okay, where do we do this? Like, okay, we're not doing it in the library. You gotta be quiet. We're not, I'm not going to your house on your turf. You're not coming to my house on my turf. Hmm . Like, we've gotta go somewhere public, but we don't want the police call because you guys are getting emotion . Like just trying to figure out a venue, like where do you do this? Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . So we picked a park pavilion.
Dana Casperson:Hmm . Nice. Right?
Matthew Brickman:So we did a park , then we did later in the afternoon. We figured kids would be home getting ready for dinner. People, there wouldn't be as many people. So, so far checkbox, checkbox that worked out <laugh> . But then what I did was I put my ex and my son on the same side of the table and I sat on the other side and I'm like, okay, you guys talk. And it started out that they're sitting next to each other and they're not, they're not like turning and talking. They're talking to me while they're talking to each other. And I, and I said to 'em , I said, why are you looking at me?
Dana Casperson:Hmm .
Matthew Brickman:Talk to them. And so eventually they did, and then they were yelling, and then I'm like, okay, hold on. And we went through the whole thing. It took about three hours or so. And of course then they're circling the wagons. They just started to repeat themselves. I knew they were done. We got it all out . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . So then I sent them. So, so then I said, okay, great, now you guys have a homework assignment. I said , and you know , and through all of it , I've got my laptop. And they basically had 10 issues between them that they had talked about. And so I said, okay, I'm going to email this to you. Here's your 10 issues in two days, I'm available, I'll meet with you again. And I figured now, now we could meet at a normal place because there no one's gonna be emotional right now. We're just negotiating. We got all the emotion out of the way. I said, okay, so here, here's the deal. I want you to go through your , these top 10 issues. I want each of you to write down two to three possible solutions for each issue. And then we're gonna negotiate which solution may work best for each issue. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so two days later, we met at a restaurant. Now we could do okay . Restaurant, no one's gonna be yelling at each other. <laugh> . And they went through and they negotiated. We said, okay, issue number one, what did you think? What did you think? Okay, which one could work? Alright . And we were able to get through it, and I then uploaded it to DocuSign so they could both sign it. Look, it's not a legal binding contract. It's not a court order objection , though. He was 24 at the time. Yeah. Like, you know, at least . And I said, look, now you guys have a meeting of the minds mm-hmm <affirmative> . Of rules and how you want to do things and how you want to conduct yourselves. And so now if you guys have an issue, just go back and look at the issue and look at what you both negotiated as a settlement. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . That was three years ago. I haven't had a phone call about anything since mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Dana Casperson:But yeah .
Matthew Brickman:Staging, like you said, choreographing staging is everything.
Dana Casperson:Yeah. It's everything. And also interesting. So there , you're talking about being an internal mediator on some level. You were , you were internal to the situation. And which can seem difficult. And people, I remember when I was starting out in the field, I was doing a lot of internal mediation and people were like, well, you can't really do that. Doesn't work. But everybody's internally mediating most of the time in their life. <laugh> . Yeah. You know, the , so that's, that's what I'm really interested in, is how, given the fact that we almost never have a mediator available to us, how do we inside of where we are still develop our capacity to see we can be and
Matthew Brickman:To choose internal mediators for ourselves,
Dana Casperson:Ourselves too. Yeah. And that's kind of going back to this book again, that's what all these categories are about, is, is what you did for them. How can we do that for ourselves on a more consistent basis so we're not just acting from habit and, and getting the same outcomes we usually do. Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:All right . So all of a sudden I'm thinking, I don't like your book because I don't want to make you, and I ste because you are gonna teach people how to be their own mediator, then they won't need us. <laugh> . Alright , now I'm joking.
Dana Casperson:It's , I think it's a growth growth industry at this point. There's, I think there's gonna be plenty, unfortunately.
Matthew Brickman:Oh yeah . I mean, I mean, I mean, look, look, the world is not , like humanity is not getting better. We can just look at it like I, I know there's this myth of, hey, we were bad and we're getting better. No, we're not. Um , we're learning more, but we still have room to grow. We still need professionals and coaches and teachers mid
Dana Casperson:Yeah . We need to mid
Matthew Brickman:And , but , but I've always, I , you know, I've, I've , I've said ever since I started mediating and, and deal with conflict resolution, I just said this to a , to a couple the other day. I said, the idea is the two people in conflict resolve your own conflict. If you can't come get a neutral third party, a pastor, a priest, a mediator, you know, something like that. If that doesn't work, then fine. Maybe you're gonna need an attorney. You're gonna need somebody of power. And if that still doesn't work, then fine. You're going to need somebody to just dictate to you, like a parent to a child. But the first step, don't call me. Don't go to an attorney. <laugh> , figure it out yourself. And that's what you've created is, okay, well, okay, I need to figure it out myself, but how do I do it? And you've given them 20 fundamental decisions of navigating and trying to figure that out before they need us as much as possible.
Dana Casperson:Yeah. Excuse me, let me drink a little water. That is exactly my goal is , um, is to empower people to recognize where they are, what they might do. And , um, sorry, I got something stuck in my throat. I was also thinking , um, when you were talking before about divorce, mediation, family mediation, I think is one of the really, one of the most painful areas that people run into conflict. And Yeah, I was remembering that one of my teachers, I was doing a divorce mediation training and there was just so many terrible stories. And, and at one point I asked all the people, everybody there was a practitioner. And I said, so how do you , uh, you know, keep going with this? What do you, what do you, how do you support yourself? Because this is really hard. Yeah. And they said it's a place where you can , uh, practicing the humanity and people when they're at their worst. Yeah. And I think that's really the basic mindset that also I hope for with this book, is that when we become more conscious of what we're deciding, what we can decide, what we're doing, what's happening, we can really develop a mindset that continues to be, to see humanity in each other. Even when we're in conflict, even when we disagree, even when there's big problems. Even when we have psychological differences or, or power differences, whatever we are, we can still do good work together. Yeah . And we can do it by becoming more conscious of what we're doing, how we're doing it, and if that's aligned with where we really wanna head.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. And you know, pe I've, I've been doing this for 18 years. I've done over th almost 3,300 mediations mm-hmm <affirmative>. And people ask me like, Matthew, isn't that exhausting? I'm like, yeah. It sucks the life out of me every day. Hmm . Um, and they're like, you're not burned out. And I said, one of the things that I've, I've seen, 'cause they say that family law is the highest burnout rate of any area of law naturally. 'cause it's all just so emotional. Yeah. But I said, I said, I have figured out that doing this long enough, it will do one of two things. And it's similar to what you're saying, it'll do one of two things to, to a person sitting in the middle of it. Like I, I, I willingly walk into hell every day to try to help people out of their own personal how , right? Yeah . Yeah. And so I said, so I tell 'em , I said, look, it's, it , it does one of two things to someone like me that does it every day , I will either become an extremely cynical, jaded individual, or I will become an very grateful individual. Hmm . There's no two ways around it. You're either affected negatively or positively, but you can't be, eh , well, you know, it's not that bad. It's not that great. No. You either walk out , you're going, wow, I'm so grateful for my life and, and for the people in my life and that I have, and to be able to help people. Or you walk away going, golly, humanity is awful. People are awful. I hate everybody like
Dana Casperson:<laugh> ,
Matthew Brickman:You're gonna be one of two ways. And what was interesting, Dana, was when I first wanted to do negotiation, the very first thought I ever had way back in the day when I thought negotiation is I wanted to do hostage negotiation. That's what I wanted to do. I was like, I want to do, like, I want to go join the FBI , I want to do hostage negotiation. But I ended up getting married, had kids, and by the time I finally got into it, and I don't know if you know this, did you know that there's an age limit to go into the FBI and I had exceeded the age limit. Wow. And I'm like, what do you mean I'm too old ? I was like, <laugh> ,
Dana Casperson:I experienced
Matthew Brickman:Early thirties. And I'm like, oh ,
Dana Casperson:Wow.
Matthew Brickman:You mean I'm too old to join? So the FBI has a mandatory retirement age, and you have to put in so many years and I was not gonna make it. And so too bad, too late. I can't do that. I'm like, you've, I'm like, I'm young. What do you mean? No , you gotta start even earlier. Wow . But what I found, what I found is I found doing family, like that's the core foundation of, of a society. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If the family is not right, the community will not be right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . The state will not be right. The government will not be Right. International conflicts will happen. I mean, if you go back and you look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it's a family fight between Ishmael and Isaac and Genesis with Father Abraham. It's a family dispute on land. Hmm . It's an internal, like brother versus brother. And I was like, you know what, I'd rather be troops on the ground at the root level affecting family, because if the family is right, we can help mom and dad create peace. That means the children, which is the next generation, can then maybe have a chance at making things right. And that will then trickle up and affect the world. And I'm like, all right . I don't have to worry. Now, I will tell you, sometimes a divorce is a hostage negotiation. <laugh>
Dana Casperson:<laugh> .
Matthew Brickman:But , um,
Dana Casperson:You still got your wish on some level.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah. But I do find that, you know, working at that core level, but it is emotional. I mean, it's,
Dana Casperson:Yeah. It's really hard. Yeah. And , and also that what gets put in place in, in children's minds, frameworks of understanding beliefs, ideas about what's possible, what they are Yeah. Gets really solidified as a child and people carry it forward. And then they, they're doing conflicts the same way that their parents did. Um, unless it becomes a conscious thing where you recognize, okay, that's not me. That's something I learned and I probably had a certain reaction. Maybe it helped me in the past. That's something I often work a lot with too , working with people is what did you learn? Yeah . Consciously or unconsciously. How, how does that impact what you're doing now? And to notice that's not me, that's a , that's what I've done. I can do something different. So we're, we're much more free than Yeah . Than we might think initially in how we respond in difficult times. Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah . Well, Dana, it has been a pleasure speaking with you and talking about Yeah , wonderful . Your new book. Um, so, so your book , um, I know I , I know people can get it on Amazon mm-hmm <affirmative> . Where, where else could they find it?
Dana Casperson:Um, it's available in all the bookstores that you might go to. Barnes and Noble Bookshop . Bookshop . Um, you can get it directly from Roman Littlefield as well. Okay . If you go to my website, there's actually a 30% discount if you do it directly at Roman Littlefield, you can find that on my website. Um, and my website. You can find information about all the different kinds of work that I do , um, as well.
Matthew Brickman:And is that, is that dana caspersen.com ? Yeah.
Dana Casperson:And Caspersen is SEN?
Matthew Brickman:Yes. Yeah. SEN not SON.
Dana Casperson:That's right. Yeah . It's initially
Matthew Brickman:Dan . And then , and then, and then if people wanna connect with you, they can get you on LinkedIn at Dana Casperson Instagram. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . <affirmative> . Um , I believe it's D Casperson , Facebook, Dana , Casper ,
Dana Casperson:That's right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> .
Matthew Brickman:Follow what you're doing. And, alright . Any, any , uh, any, any plans on another book? You've got 10 years in between. Do we have another 10 years before another?
Dana Casperson:You know what I am, I am thinking about making a book that looks at this question of how we shape our environments and our relationships in this choreographic realm and how it, how , how that's already impacting us, what we, how we can do it more consciously. So moving out kind of into this structural realm
Matthew Brickman:That's so maybe, maybe another one coming in the future.
Dana Casperson:Maybe another one. Yeah. <laugh>
Matthew Brickman:Dana, I I really appreciate you taking the time coming on and , uh, uh, just thank you so very, very much.
Dana Casperson:It's been such a pleasure to have a conversation with you. Thank you so much. You're
Matthew Brickman:Welcome.
Sydney Mitchell:If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that's info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.
Matthew Brickman:For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.