Mediate This!
Mediate This!
David Pisarra: Top 30% Family Law Cases Involve High-Conflict People With Borderline Personality Disorders
David Pisarra and Matthew Brickman discuss the Top 30% of High-Conflict Family Law Cases involving people with borderline personality disorders and the mental manipulation they utilize in the family court system.
David Pisarra is the founder of Union of Dads, with over 25 years in Family Law, focusing on helping fathers in custody and divorce cases. He's developed a supportive community with a social media reach of 125,000 dads aged 24-50, aiming to empower them in being active participants in their children's lives.
At Dad's Law School, he lends practical skills for dads to succeed in Family Court, offering comprehensive online guidance and in-person trainings like his Dad's Badass Bootcamp.
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You're Not the Only One - The Agony of Divorce: The Joy of Peaceful Resolution
Matthew Brickman
President iMediate Inc.
Mediator 20836CFA
iMediateInc.com
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
SCHEDULE YOUR MEDIATION: https://ichatmediation.com/calendar/
OFFICIAL BLOG: https://ichatmediation.com/podcast
OFFICIAL YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/ichatmediation
OFFICIAL LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ichat-mediation/
ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Hi,
SPEAKER_00:my
SPEAKER_02:name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme Court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This podcast, where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution. Because we've lost our sense of humanity. And the reality is this, I think. You know, I say, if you took all family court cases, about the first 75% of them are pretty normal. The system handles them fairly well. People go to court maybe one time. They get their orders. They never have to go back again. The top 30% is where we're really dealing with high conflict and higher conflict. Sure. Find the people that are really crazy. That's where we find the true narcissists and a true borderline personality disorder person. And I describe borderlines as the honey badgers of humanity. I mean, if you want anything about the honey badger, it's the toughest thing about it. I mean, it's an amazing creature.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But borderlines create their own reality. And they create a sense of insanity on their partner because they're so effective at gaslighting and manipulation, which makes them very very powerful when they go into family court. Because as we know, the biggest joke in family court is under penalty of perjury. Like that doesn't actually mean anything. Yeah. They lie. Everybody lies. Why do we say it? I don't know. It's a big joke. Yeah. But for the borderline, the honey badger of humanity, this is just free reign to go say and do whatever you want. Well, now we're dealing with the really crazy people in a system that's it's not going to hold them accountable. And so that's where dads have to come in and be like, how do I handle this? So we deal with a lot of that in dad's life because a lot of our dads are dealing with the borderline personality of their ex. There's a lot of the crazy ones, the really, really insane ones who are Former entertainers of a type, often. And I say that with this compassion, recognizing that most borderlines have a history of being abused as children. They were most likely sexually molested as a kid. Parent, neighbor, family member, someone down the block. Sure. Damaged individuals. And I recognize that they're very, very damaged individuals. But they're still doing more damage. And if dad doesn't step up and try and show up in court and get the 50% that in Florida he's awarded, and in California we have to fight tooth and nail for, and across the country dads have to fight. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The kids are going to get hurt as collateral damage just to mom's borderline personality craziness. And that's the problem.
SPEAKER_01:Sure,
SPEAKER_02:sure. So going back to what you're saying about, you know, a lot of times they'll use the domestic violence statute for money and, you know, weaponize that. And a lot of times, you know, as a mediator, you know, I, you know, like sometimes, you know, mom's like, you know, I think this is money driven, money motivated. And I go and talk to dad and dad's like, look, this has nothing to do with money. I want my kids. And so it's like, well, then look, then we're going to waive child support. And it's like, yeah, okay, fine. I don't care. Well, you'll get to the heart of the matter of, okay, is it really money driven or is it really I want to be involved? So sometimes we're going through that. In California, when does child support terminate? And child support, what does that actually include? So here's the deal. Most of my dads would gladly pay more in child support if they could have more time with their kids. They would rather see the money go if they could have time with their kids.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:they'll buy it all day. Your question is this. In California, child support terminates at 18. Okay. Or if a child's graduated high school.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:At 19. All right. Same for school. It'll go an extra year. Graduation. Okay. Or emancipation or marriage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marries, dies, emancipates, becomes self-supporting, all that fun stuff. Okay. All right. And then, like, do you guys include things like. Like private school and cars and iPads and cell phones and all of those other things? Or is it just like, look, you get, you know, it'll take care of child support and then we have child care and medical insurance and that's it. Or uncovered medical, maybe mutually agreed upon extracurricular. Yeah. Other than that, that's between the parents. How's California deal with that? It's very statutory medical care. We split uncovered medical care now proportionally. It used to be 50-50. Now it's proportionally based on income because we've got new rules because women don't make enough money. So they have to pay more because we've got that alleged wage gap between the two. Sure. So we've got those issues. We're trying to be an equity-based system. Sure. Private schools sometimes Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on what's the history of the family and what are the finances. I've got a case right now where mom and dad were living way beyond their means, like half a million dollars in debt to the IRS, three quarters of a million dollars in credit card debt and personal loans. And mom still wants the kids in private school at$60,000 per child. Yeah. Yeah. And dad's like, listen, my business is cratered. I can't afford this. We've got two homes, two lawyers. There's just not enough money. And mom's like, I don't care. You have to pay it. And the court system is looking at it going, all right, we're not going to take the kids out of school this year because I don't want to take them out halfway through. So you're going to have to figure out a way to make that work. Sure. But dad wins. Yes. The kids are going to private school or public school next semester. Like that's just got to happen. Yeah. To look at it and they'd be like, dad, you've got the resources and this has been the pattern. And I'm going to say you have to keep paying because that's what you signed up for. And it's for the kids. Neither of you is really, benefiting from that. And because you have the resources for it, I don't feel it's too much of a burden, which is what most judges would say. Yeah. You do have the ability without imploding your own life, going into debt, borrowing, and the kids can maintain status quo. Right. Now, the other stuff, you know, the extracurriculars, the cell phones, the iPads, all of that stuff, it's very much like, what are you guys going to agree on? Sure.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So what is mediation like in California? I mean, is it mandatory? Is it optional? Do they use it a lot? Each county in California has their own views on it. Okay. You have to go to mediation conciliation court. Some counties are like California where it's not a recommending. It's just a did you guys reach an agreement or not. If you didn't, great, the judge will make a ruling. Other counties like Ventura County, it's recommending. And what that means is you go in, you meet with the mediator, usually use the social worker. They're going to meet with mom, meet with dad, hear the stories. Moms tell a, well, dad's like not saying enough and they're going to make a recommendation. And then that 99% of the time is what the judge issues in a recommending county. So the mediator makes a recommendation to the court? Correct. Which is really, when they say recommendation, it's really like, okay, here's the decision. Yeah. So, but what if the parties came to an agreement in the mediation? Is it still a recommendation or are they able? Yeah, that would just be rubber stamped. Oh, okay. If the parties are coming to an agreement, I mean, and that's the 70% of most family court, right? I mean, those parties do You've got to be in agreement. There's a little bit of log rolling that happens. There's a little bit of this is the way it's always been. Dad gives in too easily because it's just easier. He's got a whole bunch of misconceptions about what's going on, but that just is what it is. And so it's the 30% where the mediators are really playing a bigger role.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And you said most of the mediators are social workers. Frequently, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So in Florida, and it's not county, if you want to get a date in front of the judge, even if it's for even like a temporary relief hearing, you have to go to mediation at least one time, at least once. And if you go and you settle it, great, not a problem. Judge will rubber stamp it all day long. Like they don't want to decide it. They will if they have to, but they don't want to, right? If you go and you can't settle, then fine. We'll give you a date in front of the judge. But most judges, just the judicial rules, each judge has their own rules. And most of them will say, look, 10 days prior to seeing me, you got to go back to mediation at least another time and try it again because we don't want to deal with it. And certain issues and certain judges... Even after that, if the people are still high conflict and come in and can't figure it out and they'll listen to it on some cases, because I've had people even after I'm like, I've been there. I was there pre-temporary relief that I was there pre-trial. They finally went to court and the judge didn't rule, but ordered them back to mediation with explicit instructions. And they came back again. So, for example, for example, they're they're arguing over custody and time sharing and visitation and and whatnot and so you know there's all the allegations but they're allegations they're unfounded or it's like hey we want we want you to jump through these hoops so the dad will jump through the hoops and then they're still like well no and it's like okay well then they go to the trial and they're putting on their dog and pony show and the judge is like look i'm not going to sit here and ask you what do you want for christmas what do you want for thanks no so he says go back to mediation create a 50 50 time sharing you're going to each alternate the holidays, pick up, drop off at a neutral place, shared parental, get out and go to mediation and finalize it. So, so then they come back and I'm like, okay, well, did you have your trial? They said, yeah. Judge said, come back 50, 50 times. It's like, okay. And so, so, so, I mean, I come in at all different stages and about 30% of my practice is pro se parties.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:where mom or dad will contact me and say, hey, look, my husband, my wife, you know, we're, you know, we're getting divorced. We don't want to deal with this with attorneys. We need to get through this. It's like, what's the process? Can you help us? Can we get through it? What's the cost? What's the timeline? I'm like, it's a lot cheaper. It's a whole lot faster. And you control the outcome, not a judge, not your attorney. You are in full control. And they're like, great. And sometimes they'll even send me like, you know, bullet point going, we've agreed on all of this. We just don't know how to memorialize it for the court. And we do have a couple little things that we just can't see eye to eye on and we need some help. Great. And that's often the case. I mean, I've done many a mediating role myself where I've kind of ghostwritten the agreement because most people can figure it out. It's the crazy ones, the high cost. It's that 30%. which is where the judges in my mind are actually doing a grave disservice because if a judge recognizes that there's a personality disorder person in the mix, setting them back in mediation is just abusive for the one who's not the personality disorder person. Right. You're forcing them back into an abusive situation. And that's where I think the judges really need to step up and just be like, okay, borderline narcissist. No, someone has to just take the bull by the horns, make the rulings and just make it happen. But they don't. And it's unfortunate because I think in many ways, that's where the system starts abusing people through their trying to be nice to everyone and it's not actually helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you can actually create problems as you're trying to fix them. And then it just leaves a bad taste. And most likely, they're probably going to take it out on the kids at some point. Well, guaranteed. But it also does this. It tends to empower the abuser. True. Which continues the abuse on the victim or the target. And then children just get caught in the crossfire. Yep. So the judge has actually now done three really negative things by avoiding their job. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I've had... maybe three and almost 3,500 mediations where that happened. You know, I really like, as a mediator, I really like the temporary relief hearings because, you know, that's where you get a real, you know, for the parties in a, you know, in most jurisdictions here, it's a 30-minute hearing. Each side gets 15 minutes. And so you better come in. And this is where I really liked what you talked about with helping dads and fathers be able to put everything in writing and be able to make a presentation using like chat GPT or whatnot because yeah you've got to do a very succinct bullet point boom boom boom in 15 minutes for the judge because you're going to get a good snapshot of what the judge is going to do in a final and a temporary relief and that launches settlement most of the time absolutely and so what you're doing is really amazing They're not in where we're at. They don't have time limits. I know more jurisdictions are doing that. Arizona keeps things like clicking. They're an amazing way. Yeah, their judiciary is amazing the way they've got things structured. But for us, we go on an ex parte basis. The initial hearing, you're not even in front of a judge. It's all on your paperwork. Judge reads your paperwork. The other side's paperwork. They file it.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:They're not even talking to anybody, which is why your paperwork is so important. Because, again, we're back to your first impression with the judge is your paperwork.
SPEAKER_01:It's your paperwork.
SPEAKER_02:In the child custody action plan, I say, like, here's what it needs to look like. Here's what needs to be in there. You've got to have this stuff structured so that a judge can look at it and be like, I want to find for that person. Oh, okay. So earlier when you were describing that, I didn't realize that the first– I mean, I know you're saying like first impression, but I didn't realize even first appearance is paper, not person. Everything. 100%. She, and this just blew my mind, but when she was filling out applications, like everything's just online. And, and I'm like, well, why don't you just call and talk to him? She's like, well, that's not how you do interviews. I'm like, well, you mean that's not how you do interviews. She's like, well, and she's like, no, it's like, you have to write it. So she ended up getting a service. And this is what you're telling me, like you have created, she had to get a service to help her redo her resume. I mean, she's a paralegal. She knows how to right she knows how to structure she knows how to make an argument but in a legal world not in like the like the real world and then not in the real world typing right like in the legal world but not the real world to where a potential job person like certain words would stick out or like the algorithms would review these things and see that and so i mean that just blew my mind but now as you're describing what you're doing with dad's law school i'm like oh yeah okay and that's how the court are doing it where that's why that paperwork, the way it's written and what is there is so important because they're not even getting that FaceTime like an interview. It's the paperwork. Exactly. And that's why so many dads go into court and they're like, I didn't even look at my evidence. Well, of course not. Your paperwork was horrible. So at what point after something that was unreasonable, like it's all you've got to have things lined up and know what it is you're trying to accomplish. So at what point, like, is first appearance? Like, okay, you're in, like, you get that FaceTime with the judge. Where's that in the process? I mean, if the first is the paper, where would you end up in front of the judge at the end? No, for us, you know, if you're going in on an ex parte basis, you're in front of that judge two days. but you've got to be able to get past that first hurdle. Which is the paperwork. Which is the paperwork. And then you're in front, you can be in front of the judge the next day. If they want, if there's an emergency and they're like, get in here, you've got to be ready. Oftentimes though, you're filing what we call a request for orders where you're asking the judge, I need orders for child custody, visitation, holiday schedule, parenting. That's usually about a six to eight week process. But again, the judge is... And they're coming out six, eight weeks out. They're going to read all of your paperwork before you actually walk in that courtroom. Yeah. And look, judging that judge based on what you're asking for and how you're supporting it and what you're telling the judge. way before you're ever walking into that courtroom.
SPEAKER_01:Got it. Got it.
SPEAKER_02:And the judge should come in and be like, okay, I'm neutral, but look, it's humanity. And if they've read something and it's not backed up properly and it's just ranting and raving, poorly written, they're already going to have a formulation in their mind. Now they just get to put a face to that poorly written document. And that's where you're coming in going, guys, you have to pay attention and do this properly. Well, one of the big things that I've seen oftentimes is a, there's not enough information about the relationship between dad and the child. Right. But also there's frequently, she did this, she did this, she did this. She's lying. She's lying. She's lying. She's lying. She's lying. She's lying. Dude, your focus is entirely the wrong place. Yeah. It's supposed to be on the kids, not her. Focus should be on the kid. Your relationship with the kid. Yes, there's a place to point out that mom's a lying manipulator, manufacturer of reality. But don't let that be the first thing or the only thing the judge remembers. Yeah. I did that. It's interesting you said that because I actually did that once. a number of years past my divorce when my ex and I were still fighting. And I remember I went in and our pastor's wife, she actually, I sat down with her and she's like, Matthew, what's going on? Like, what's really going on? I'm like, oh my gosh. And my ex and my ex and my ex and my ex and my ex and my ex. I just went on and on and on. Right, David? And so she looked at me, she goes, you were paying way too much attention to your ex and you're not paying attention to your kids. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm trying to expose her so my kids can see what, you know, what kind of person she is. And she goes, no, no, you're going about this all wrong. Instead of focusing on her to expose, if you actually built your children up, they will rise above and they will look back and down and see and be like, wow, um, that's not normal behavior why is mom acting like that without me ever having to come in and tell them because if i come in and tell them your mother's a liar they will defend her because that's their mother but if i'm teaching them how to tell the truth and how to be honest and how to be you know moral and and how to do these things and then they then compare that knowledge to her and go huh why is mom lying that's a whole different story and that's exactly what you're saying and it took me years to learn that lesson it's a very important lesson especially for the dads because like you said a lot of times the mom will come in and bash bash bash bash bash and instead of just returning it looks like two children tit for tat you're going no load up with with evidence against the accusations right and if you want to vent that stuff that's what we guys do in our whatsapp group whatsapp group yeah you know whatsapp group or in the meetings you know when we have our weekly meetups, guys will come in and they'll be like, I can't believe she's pulling this crap. And it's like, okay, you got to like, talk about that stuff. And then let's get you refocused on the important
SPEAKER_01:things.
SPEAKER_02:So we give them a place where they can vent those feelings. And sometimes guys have really big stuff and we give them, you know, more than two minutes, but in general, the goal is let's hear it, get that feeling out because someplace, okay. Then let's get you refocused on the important thing. And what's really nice about our WhatsApp group and our meetups is when the dads are hearing it from other dads, they're not hearing it from me, it gets easier. They hear the message, they hear the support, and they get like, okay, it's not just me. I'm not the only one going through this. Got it. Now what do I do? Now let's focus on, okay, having the best visit with the kid, making sure we set ourself up so we can argue why we should have 50-50 conversation. Because oftentimes they don't know how to do that. They don't know what they're supposed to say to argue that they're just as capable. Hearing that from other dads helps them find out, wait, I'm not the only one because it can feel isolating. Like nobody, I mean, I hear this all the time as a mediator. Oh, Matthew, you would never believe this. I mean, like, I'm sure you've never seen this. I'm like, I have seen that every day, all day for years. Like you are not the only one. But you know what? There's safety in numbers. And to find out that you're not the only one, that others are struggling, it gives a humanity Absolutely. Absolutely. Do your guys then leave? Do they stay? Do they then help out? Like, what do you see with, like, retention and the growth? Is that happening? Or, like, people, like, coming in, taking the course, winning, and then they're done and they disappear? There's both. Okay. They sign up. They do a month. They bank through all the videos. They maybe do one or two meetups, and they're like, you know what? I'm good. I'm like, cool. Awesome. We got what you needed. I've got other guys who are years in because, yeah, they've done the videos. Yeah, they've learned it, but they like the community. They like having the sense of opportunity to offer someone else help and hope because giving back is one of the things men do really well. Men like being mentors. And so if they can take their experience and then turn it to good with other men, it's really rewarding for them. So some guys do that. Some guys are in for six months and they're gone, whatever they need. My job is not to like have somebody be in our group forever. My job is to give you the tools you need to have the relationship with your kids so that they benefit in the long run. Whether that's, you know, you're in for two weeks and you bang through all the videos and you ask me three questions and you're like, cool, got it. Ready to go. Great. Whatever you need, we're here for you.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So question for you. Actually, I've got five questions for a lightning round for you, okay? Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah. Okay. They're not complicated. All right. Number one, what's your dream job? Pretty much what I'm doing. I'm helping men and helping them grow. So for me, being able to mentor men and as they're going through not only this, but then rebuilding their life, new career, how do I get structured? Doing what I'm doing. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right. Favorite type of music?
UNKNOWN:Music.
SPEAKER_02:Probably some sort of non-lyric background music. I'm like Helen Keller when it comes to music. I just can't remember the music. So just something in the background. For me, it's background music, yeah. Okay. Favorite food? Fettuccine Alfredo with chicken. I love that. That's one of my favorites. I love that. All right. Speaking of food, if you could have a meal with one person, living or dead, who would it be and why? Ooh, Thomas Edison comes to mind just because he was such an amazing inventor and he had such a creative head. I imagine conversation with him would be fantastic. It'd be enlightening. Oh, oh, oh, oh, that's painfully, that's a dad joke, dude. I know, I know. Okay. All right. Last one. If you could live anywhere in the world with your family, with your dogs, with Where would you live and why? Oh, good question. I'm kind of leaning towards the Amalfi Coast because I love the ocean. I love seafood and I love Italian food and I love Italian men. So I'm going to say the Amalfi Coast.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So where can the listeners find your stuff? I know that you had talked about your book. What's the title of the book again? So it's Death Dad's Child Custody Action Plan, Insider Secret Family Court Success. You can go to my website, dadslawschool.com. There'll be a big pop-up. Just click the button and get it right there. You can get all of my courses and programs at dadslawschool.com, where we offer both coaching, one-on-one consulting and mentoring. Dadslawschool.com is the place to find me. Okay. And real quick question about that. I just popped up. I'm like, I know we're winding up. I'm like, wait a second. I got I have another question. So the resources that you have created are not just California law based. You can take that and apply it to any state in any legal situation because like whether you're going through California law, Florida law, New York law, Tennessee law, you need to be able to write, present, talk. And you can add in Australia, New Zealand South Africa, the UK, Canada, Brazil. All of it. Because what we're doing is we're doing strategy. We're teaching dads how to present yourself to the judge to be the most effective. That's the important part. The individual law, whatever, you know, whether it's family code 3644 for me or Florida code statute 17-921 X3Y for you. It doesn't really matter. That's an easy thing to figure out. The strategy of what do I tell judge? How do I convince the judge? How do I demonstrate that I'm an awesome dad? That's what we're showing. And that's the same regardless of the law you're dealing with. 100%. And we've had dads in our Dad's Law School VIP program from literally Australia, South Africa, the UK, all across the country. We've got a Canadian dad. We're bringing dads together because it's an international problem. And I'm offering a solution to these dads on how to demonstrate straight. You're an awesome dad to the court and how to rebuild your self-esteem and get back to being the happy, productive dad that you are. That's awesome. Well, David, I really, really appreciate you coming on and it's just a wealth of information. I appreciate what you're doing too. I mean, definitely. So I hope you have a great day and I'll be talking to you soon, I'm sure. Take care, Matthew. Cheers. All right. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_00:If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discussed, email For more
SPEAKER_02:information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChat Mediation virtual platform built by Cisco Communications, visit me online at imediating.com. Call me at 561-262-7000. or email me at mbrickman