Mediate This!
Mediate This!
International Negotiation: There's Levels To This (Jessica Menasce)
Matthew Brickman and Jessica Menasce go deep into the various levels of mediation from the family level all the way up to International Mediation between countries and warring factions to give you insight on how everything still comes back to family values and structure.
Her goal is to carve a path to curiosity and, ultimately, a desire to want to work together in shared challenges. She works to foster collaboration among diverse stakeholders within complex environments and have particularly proven success in designing impactful training programs and guiding cross-cultural teams through challenging processes, focusing on sustainable relationship-building.
Connect with Jessica: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicamenasce/
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If you have a matter, disagreement, or dispute you need professional help with then visit iMediate.com - Email mbrickman@ichatmediation or Call (877) 822-1479
Matthew Brickman is a Florida Supreme Court certified family and appellate mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. But what makes him qualified to speak on the subject of conflict resolution is his own personal experience with divorce.
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Matthew Brickman
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ABOUT MATTHEW BRICKMAN:
Matthew Brickman is a Supreme Court of Florida certified county civil family mediator who has worked in the 15th and 19th Judicial Circuit Courts since 2009 and 2006 respectively. He is also an appellate certified mediator who mediates a variety of small claims, civil, and family cases. Mr. Brickman recently graduated both the Harvard Business School Negotiation Mastery Program and the Negotiation Master Class at Harvard Law School.
Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell.
Matthew Brickman:Hi, I'm Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme Court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This Podcast, where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution. Today I got to interview Jessica Menace, and I am so excited to share that interview with you as we discussed mediation, negotiation, and everything conflict resolution.
Jessica Menasce:Firstly, thank you so much for it just in hearing you talk, Matthew, I feel like there's so much that I think I'd forgotten that you brought back to life, or just to the like the surface of my memory. Because time passes, right? And especially like living in a place, you just kind of like sometimes, you know, that's that feeling of like, wait, did I live through that or like somebody else? And I'm recalling that.
Matthew Brickman:It's almost like a dream.
Jessica Menasce:It feels like a dream, exactly. And and like you mentioned, COVID hit. And so there was that pre-COVID period and that after COVID. It's funny, like that, it's it's sad at the same time. I know you really want to go to Jordan, and I hope next year, you know, they they have okay.
Matthew Brickman:So so that we're gonna push pause on our conversation and I'll tell you about that. Okay.
Jessica Menasce:Okay.
Matthew Brickman:I was talking to my sister about it. My sister's like, oh my gosh, my sister's a world traveler. Okay, and she's like, Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. Absolutely. So she she texted me, she said, she said, are you still like interested in going? I said, right now, maybe about 20%. Really? She's like, that's it. And I said, I said, it was at like 90%, it's at 20. Maybe it'll go to 60, maybe next year, maybe not. And the more I thought about it, Jessica, I don't know. And here's why. Here's why.
Jessica Menasce:Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:Um going to going to Turkey this year or last year or 2025. Um that was a once and a lifetime event. That was what they call like a nodal event. It's a life-altering event, just like COVID was a nodal event. It was a life, it changed life on this planet as we know it, right? I mean, COVID, 2020, you could almost go pre-COVID, post-COVID, like BCAD. Absolutely. Split the planet. It is it has changed life as we know it on this planet, right? It's like a second marker in historical time. So so going being invited and going on the 20th anniversary to where it started with the people who started it and with the entire board of directors. Try to duplicate that. No. And so I have no regrets on not now, in in in hindsight, I have no regrets on not going to Jordan. Because if I had gone to Jordan, I would have been like, yeah, that was fun. Well, Turkey, I don't really know anything about Turkey, don't care about Turkey, right? But now going, and it was such a it's such a and for me, it was such a life-changing event. Like, I'm not the same person that I arrived in Turkey 10 days later that I left. Um, I mean, it changed so much of my perspectives and opened my mind. And I mean, I I I didn't realize, uh, but I didn't realize how many biases I had, how much prejudice I had. I didn't know, I didn't realize how self-absorbed I was. I didn't realize how opinionated I was, closed-minded I was. I'm like, I'm a mediator. Oh no.
Jessica Menasce:So interesting.
Matthew Brickman:I didn't I didn't realize that, but you know what? Yeah, yeah, and it was funny. That was my first like trip across the pond. I know, right? And so and you know, and it and it was funny because I I remember being over there, and and like even Christopher, he goes, Okay, so your first time out of the US, and you're like, you're not going to Rome, you're not going to England, you're not going to Paris, London. You're gonna go to St. Loufre. Yeah, and you're gonna walk the Abraham Path. And I'm like, it was enough to get me off the couch, absolutely. Now, trying to again like, okay, well, yeah, there's other parts of the path. Yeah, you know what, I could go, but is it gonna be now? This is the comparison. The bar is so high. I know the group of people, I mean, David Bob was amazing. I think you go against here, though, to Jordan. We'll see. Keep it open. Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, look, I'm I I I'm open, but I'm like, also, I'll say Jordan is so fun.
Jessica Menasce:I know that this was really special and life-changing in a certain way. What I love about Jordan is that, you know, in such a war-torn region that's going through so much chaos, some of it fault of their own, some of it not their own fault. You know, it's just where we are in the timeline of history and of humanity. That's just the way things are. But Jordan has stayed afloat and it's fun. It's like really fun. It's like hiking in really unique places, and and it's actually more deserted, right? Than than what you saw in Turkey.
Matthew Brickman:Deserted. Well, I was expecting more deserted in Turkey. Like I was looking at something like Jordan, like deserted, not so like, oh, well, that's interesting. So look, look, I'm not I'm not saying no. The other thing, too, is Jessica. I mean, there's not a night that I do not close my eyes and I'm back there. Like it really impacts. Um, and I think too, probably with you traveling, like you know, going to like, and I think you know, Israel has that, you know, that call, like, like you said, it has that call to you. And and so, I mean, I I I still am always thinking about it, processing, unpacking, like there was so much.
Jessica Menasce:Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:Um, and I mean, and I'm an extreme extrovert, but I'll tell you, you walk through that market in San Lufra, I was on senses overload. Totally. Um, and you know, plus, plus, I'll tell you, it was the first time in my life that I have not had any control. And I'm a bit of a control freak.
Jessica Menasce:And I think that I was like, how are you bouncing from hotel to hotel? And how are you? And that's that's how we connected because you told me about your story.
Matthew Brickman:Yeah, and and so this was the first time that I had to surrender control. Yeah, that I am in a foreign country, I do not speak the language, I do not know the language, I do not know the culture, I don't know where I am, I don't know if anything is good, bad, right, wrong. I don't know. And I just have to trust strangers that I just met. Yeah, and and like just put my life in there, hands going okay, I yeah, I I okay, and so that that opened my mind. Not just, oh, even I'm on the Abraham path, and then yeah, I mean, I was in five hotels in two days, or not even hotels, I mean inns, but but but here was the most amazing thing about it in hindsight, okay? So at the time I'm just bouncing, okay, Chris, whatever. All right, revenue, whatever. Like, okay, and Chris, I love Chris. He was like Matthew, like, you know, can you get a little emotional, a little upset? Like, and I and I remember I said to him, I said, would it help? Would it change the situation? And that that was my mediator mindset. That's my negotiation mindset. Going, okay, I can get all upset and be upset at the situation. Is it gonna help resolve the conflict? No. What's it gonna do? It's actually going to prevent the two of us, and he's the one calling the shots. I'm the one, like like if this was a negotiation, we're on opposite sides, right? Negotiate. What it's gonna do is it's gonna interfere with the relationship, which is going to impede the process. Yeah. So is it really gonna help to get upset?
Jessica Menasce:And in negotiation terms, is how does that mean my interests, right?
Matthew Brickman:Exactly. I mean, it wasn't gonna help anything. So I was just like, okay, you know what? And he kept saying, Okay, you know, are you gonna get a little upset? I'm like, no. Now, what was amazing was sort of kind of it's sort of in the process, and this is like in hindsight unpacking. I think at the time I was possibly a little disturbed that I was not with the core group of the people, being able to wake up with them, have breakfast with them, enter inner, you know, be with them and really connect to them, right? And so, in a way, I was, you know, I was like, huh, I guess you know, it feels like a loss. Like, why? And here was the other thing that was interesting, too. I was the first of three people to arrive. Why am I not like, hey, you're the first one here? We got you set. We'll we will do it, we will use someone else's to figure this out, but um, that was not the way that it was planned. That was not the I mean, look, it was happening for a reason unknown to me, and I'm just like, whatever. But in hindsight, oh Jessica, it was one of the greatest experiences, and I'm so grateful for it. You know why?
Jessica Menasce:Why?
Matthew Brickman:And you may not even know that this because you ended up having to leave.
Jessica Menasce:Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:But but you know who I actually got to wake up every day and have breakfast with and have you know drinks at night and sit around with and be with.
Jessica Menasce:You can I I can guess, but you can tell me. Board of directors. Yeah. Yeah. What?
Matthew Brickman:Like, I mean, that was like okay. I mean, and look, I loved everybody there. I mean, they were I mean, like, I felt like family was it was there, the connections were amazing. But like, okay, good. I get to wake up with the board of directors, we get to hang out. I get, I mean, and I'll tell you, Ravenel, oh my gosh, had just great insight, just like you were saying to the Palestinian, the Israeli conflict. She's an Israeli, married to a Palestinian, living in Jerusalem. And just the just just the just the conversations we're able to have, just opening my mind. Again, why am I here? I'm here, I'm out of my element. I'm learning. And as a conflict resolution specialist, having to take my own advice, check my biases at the door, check my perspectives, not be so opinionated, open everything up. I'm sitting there with with the board who they are the ones top level, like yourself, negotiating things that I would never touch. I mean, I don't even know if I even have a skill set to touch those.
Jessica Menasce:Oh, you 100% do. And we can talk about them.
Matthew Brickman:I can share. But yeah, but it was, I mean, so in hindsight, it was an amazing blessing. Um, amazing blessing. Not to mention a crazy amazing story. Like, I mean, it was it was an just it just added to just the experience of how awesome the people were, the board of directors. I mean, for me, you know, and and and I kept telling Ravidel and Chris, I told them both, I said, look, um I am, I, you know, I'm I'm I'm having, you know, I knew that I knew that everything was going to be okay because of two things. And this is something that as a mediator, I've tried to put across to the people that I'm helping negotiate. Is I said, number one, I knew that you had my safety at your highest priority, and I knew that you had my comfort as your highest priority. So as long as you knew, as long as I knew that you knew that I that that that, hey, we want Matthew to be safe and comfortable, you were you were adjusting. And Josh actually, in our uh uh what was it, in our virtual hello meet and greet that we had before we went, I remember when uh Josh and Josh and I had this conversation when we were in Haran, and I and and I told him, I said, Josh, you know, I mean he he had said thank you for being so flexible with you know also because you know he was at the end that I was at, you know, that or the one that he used me to find for him. So in any case, it was interesting because um, you know, and I told him, I said, I said you said something to me that a lot in that you said something to everybody, but I really took it to heart in our virtual meet and greet, and that was your greatest asset on the ground will be your ability to pivot. That's what it was, and you know what, we got to do that in negotiations all the time. Like you're you're on a path A, B, C, D. No, A. Okay, wait, wait. All right, now we're gonna come back to B. You know, one of the ways that I've that that I've described negotiation, or what I do, you know, as a negotiator, is you really have either um you've got linear thinking, you've got circular thinking, linear, A, B, C, D, circular, we're going relationship, relationship, relationship. And you've got to be able to pivot between the two. Um, and there's there's a book called The Bridge, and um, and I actually interviewed the author, uh, phenomenal book where she did 10 years of research on disabilities. And and so, so the so the picture that in in my mind, the easiest way to describe negotiation as as as I see it is um we are not a volcano that explodes and lava just goes A, B, C, D. We are not a mudslide where it just goes. Um, we are more or less, and and you'll know this growing up in South Florida, we are a hurricane. We are circular on a path, and that's what we're doing is we're having to manage people, relationships, but as we move A, B, C, D, E through a conflict, but we're having to manage all of that at once. You know, it's not just process, process, process, process, and that ability to pivot. And if you look at, I mean, if you go back and you look at any model of a hurricane, it's like here and then it goes there. But it there's a path, you can track it out, but it's constantly circular. Absolutely. That's what we're doing. Yeah, that's what we're doing on a daily basis.
Jessica Menasce:Yeah.
Matthew Brickman:Um, whether it's high-level governments and you know, things like you're doing, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or ground level going, okay, mom and dad and child. Um many years ago, actually, what my my my first adventure, as you were talking about as a kid, you know, going, oh, you know what? I conflict, I'm I'm gonna do this. Um, my first adventure that I thought would be good was I wanted to do uh hostage negotiation. And people were like, Oh my gosh, but Matthew, like, what if you try to do that and they still kill the hostages? I'm like, well, at least I know I tried. Yes, but uh but um interestingly enough, by the time I was like, Okay, this is what I want to do, and I'm on the path, I had aged out. Did you know that that that you can be too old to join the FBI to do hostage? I think I knew that. I think I knew that because they have maybe their 20 or 25 year mandatory retirement, and I had already I was gonna be starting too late for that. And they're like, nope, sorry, I'm going, I'm like 30 or 40. I was like, nope. So um so so then I got to thinking about things like you do, going, okay, well, hostage negotiation. And I'm thinking, okay, high level. I'm like, okay, government, uh, international. And I got to thinking, I interestingly enough, I got to thinking back to my studies where I took I took one class, and you were talking about your Israeli-Palestinian class. I took one class in my undergrad on terrorism. And um, and so, you know, I was thinking that, you know, we were looking at the different terrorist groups, where did they start? And everything goes back to Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And so I was like, okay, that's high level, but why? And I just started working backwards. You know, sometimes it's easier to go to the end game and then work backwards, right? Because we can get all like you and I could sit here for hours talking about no, we have to go down this path. Okay, we both have this is our goal. Good. We're united on our goal. How do we get there? Then we can negotiate the best, most efficient, meet your needs, meet my needs, be able to negotiate. So I started going, I just started working backwards. I sort of how my mind works a lot of the times is backwards, not forwards. Because forwards creates conflict too many times. Backwards, are we united in our plan? Yes. Okay, now we can just talk about how to get there. But are we united in our goal? Yes, great, not a problem. Now you're not an enemy. If we start with, well, I think this, I think this, now we're opposites.
Jessica Menasce:Yeah, and that's hard. I mean, it's really hard to get people to get there because you know, I so I've been reflecting on a lot of what you've said. Are are we are we in the conversation? Are we not in a conversation? Are we still in the oh okay? I wasn't sure. Yeah, yeah, because you had mentioned pausing. I feel like two things come to mind, and also because terrorism just came up, and I want to name this as a a disclaimer disclaimer for for listeners as well because the world is changing, right? And in the world of negotiation, we talk a lot about conditions, right? Like, what are the conditions that we can support in creating? And Ursul, earlier you and I were connecting around like the spaces. How do you create the spaces? Whether it's the curriculum design, when you create a cohort. So in the work of conflict transformation, which is different than conflict resolution, it's referred to as creating the containers, right? So the different containers that are going to lead to some ripeness toward change. And I name this because when I signed up for that master's, you know, I didn't agree with that approach, even though the term terrorism and counter-terrorism, many people would argue, and it's important to name, it's a very like Western-centric approach, right? In the end, it's about the conditions that lead to violence. And one is called terrorism, the other one could be called the military. The only difference is that one is recognized through the eyes of like the international world order, and the other is, you know, are non-state armed groups. To me, as a person who works in trying to support change that is sustainable and lasting, I don't even call it peace anymore because also some people become award allergic to the word peace. But like what you said about something that's going to last and something that people can commit to, both leadership, but also just the communities and especially the families. That's why I think it's all interrelated. And I want to go back to that in a moment. Like, I think that it doesn't matter what we call it, it's about what is the invitation and what can people can connect to. And for me, one of the most um like shape-shifting experiences that I've had is every year, I've had the chance to go to every year for the past uh five, six years, I've had the chance to go to Northern Ireland to hear and learn from people there. Um, and in general, if you're working in the context of Israel Palestine, a lot of groups travel to Northern Ireland to Belfast, but also beyond Belfast, to hear from people there because they went through a process of transformation at different levels, at the community level where the violence was happening. But then the leaders of those communities associated with the different parties and stakeholders on the different sides. And then you had the political negotiators who were trying to get it all on paper somehow. And it's never going to be this perfect agreement. It's also important to name in Northern Ireland, decommissioning of weapons, like disarmament of weapons, didn't, you know, it didn't happen until eight years after the Good Friday Agreement was signed. But what they do all tell you from all sides to this day, even though they had a period just in the past few years where they had no government. Now they have a government again, but for a while they didn't have a government, is we rather have bad peace than go back to how things were. That's interesting. Right? It's interesting. And so, you know, I think that part of why sometimes the work in international negotiation and all of that, sometimes it's uh it's perceived as uh like it's almost like it's a sexier topic, right, than family mediation. It's just because of the level of violence and and the acuteness of it and uh just how the high stakes of it that it feels like. It's it's just perceived that way. But I'm actually a big believer that it all starts with the family. And one of the initiatives that I'm involved with now, um it's called Mindful Negotiating. And it was founded by Max David Lacroix, who was the one who co-designed and co-facilitated the Abraham course course, the virtual one that you did. Max is also super interested in the family and what they don't share often, but at the program on negotiation, it all goes back to Roger Fisher, right? Roger Fisher is like the father, and a lot of these folks that are almost like his disciples that we're studying, we've learned from Josh and William and William, as Dan Shapiro, all of them, they studied under Josh under Roger. And Roger often consulted in Boston with many of uh the folks who were involved in internal family systems therapy. Yeah, they understood that not only does it start in the family, but that looking at the family and that system, right? That like family system, like you know much more about it than I do, but that's what I'm that's uh that's for later. But like I'm I'm looking forward to doing that next year. I'm hoping to start a program in uh LMFT, like a master's in in family and and couples therapy, because our field, and I when I say our field, I'm looking at just negotiation, you know, it was hyper-corporatized because it needed to be if you were gonna start working in the private sector, because a lot like it doesn't have that executive feel, that corporate feel. It was too taboo to enter a space, think of a multinational company or even a government agency or institution to walk in and say, okay, let's talk about the family and how what might how your family dynamic affects how you show up in a role of leadership today in management, right? In in change management and in consulting. And so people don't necessarily want to talk about that, but actually, um, so much of this field came from that. Even the if you think actually decisions and interests, right, which is at the core of it. Um, and so just to also go back to what we were saying, for me, the Abraham Path experience Abraham Path Initiative was really my dive in into two things. One, this world of negotiation. I also wanted to do that since I was a kid, but like you, I I thought I think in the end I wanted to be a mediator, but I ended up in this world of negotiation and falling in love with it. And now it's just everything that is conflict-related, not just one. And and much more around how do we talk to each other and how do we engage across differences and listening? And the second piece, it did give me that window into just spending as much time as I could. It was a privilege to spend as much time as I could with the people, um, mostly like living in East Jerusalem and being with Palestinians all over the West Bank. Sadly, I didn't get to travel to Gaza before then. But for five years, I was just staying at family homes and just understanding their daily reality, walking through checkpoints, driving all over the West Bank. And then I felt for me, it has always been really important to study something and also meet the people and understand others' experiences as much as possible before saying, okay, I'm gonna be an expert and dive into this type of work.
Sydney Mitchell:If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discussed, email us at info at iChatmediation.com. That's info at iChat ICHAT mediation.com. And stay tuned to hear your shout-out and have your question answered here on the show.
Matthew Brickman:For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation virtual platform built by Cisco Communications, visit me online at imediating.com. Call me at 561-262-9121. Toll free at 877-822-1479, or email me at MBrickman at iChatMediation.com.